MikeUK

To many 'great belief' or 'faith' is in its self folly

simply to follow without thought!

Oakvillian

I understood that Paul VI, at the Second Vatical Council in 1967, took pains to make it clear that the celibacy rule was founded on tradition and common practice rather than required dogma. Similarly, John Paul II's pronouncements on the male-only priesthood have been explicitly categorised as not an ex-cathedra teaching - in other words, leaving the door open for a change of mind in the future. Fence-sitting to appease liberals? Perhaps.


But here, again, the Vatican takes pains to make instances of Papal infallibility as rare and uncontroversial as possible. Because the dogma states that an infallible teaching cannot ever be rescinded without the enormously complex repercussions, there have been very, very few "ex cathedra" utterances that are said to have been infallible. The current Pope, when he was a Cardinal and head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, formerly known as the Inquisition, wrote a paper on the "infallible" pronoucements of Popes, which took a very conservative view of the numbers of teachings which can be said to have been infallible.

I hold no candle (ho, ho) for the supremacy of any one brand of Christianity over any other, nor indeed for the supremacy of Christianity over any other religion. In that, at least, I agree with you that faith is a personal decision that - by its very nature - cannot be rationalised. And the Catholic church is by no means unique in its inability to make definitive pronouncements for fear of being proven wrong (I think us Anglicans would give you a run for your money, there). I do, however, think it's inevitable that, in time, women and non-celibate men will be admitted to the Catholic priesthood.

I appear to have spent too many evenings in my youth drinking whisky and talking religion with an old friend who is now a Catholic priest. I'm somewhat surprised how much I remember of what we discussed... I've checked a couple of facts here on Wikipedia (and added the reference to the paper that Ratzinger wrote) but I'm sure there are still errors in my argument...

JET747

Maybe you are right , in time who knows ? That way I guess maybe Christian Unity will be a step closer.

However, maybe a more important point it is the way we live our life as Christians. If as Christians we carry our own cross and follow the teachings, morals and path that Christ took at least we all turn out to be decent humans who do their best to love and forgive everyone. I respect people such as Mike UK who seems to be of no religious belief, as he has made that choice himself, although it's not what I believe in or millions of others for that matter. In return I believe we who believe in a faith, whatever it may be, should have the same respect afforded to us also. I am not too sure if that is the case in some cases--but that's fine.

What about the point regarding the Jehovah Witness and his wife ? What is your view of this ?

JET

Oakvillian

I guess it makes me glad I'm not a JW so will never have to make that kind of choice. I can't really understand in what circumstances a religious doctrine can prohibit a life-saving medical procedure, nor what it is about a blood transfusion in particular that is so abhorrent to JW. It's all to do with keeping kosher, isn't it? That bit in Acts where the Pharisees try and stop Paul and Barnabas preaching to the Gentiles, and the compromise they reach is to keep kosher laws on eating the wrong kind of meat, or animals that have been strangled to death... Do JW keep a kosher table?

My view is that this is religious dogma taken several steps too far, and is illustrative of the difficulty I have with any kind of fundamentalist-literalist interpretation of scripture. I don't subscribe to it, and I can't really fathom how otherwise intelligent people could do so. But they do, and that's their choice.

stepnek

I used to be a JW until around 1996 and I was brought up as one from the age of 7. JW's believe that God has clearly stated through the bible that he expects those that want to serve him to abstain from blood. They understand abstaining as keeping clear from it in all forms either as an animal product such as not eating black pudding to not having blood transfusions.

They believe just as strongly that God will bring about an Armageddon that will remove all wickedness and restore the earth to a paradise like state. They believe that if they stay faithfull until that time or to death that they will be rewarded with a resurrection to life after Armageddon that will be forever. Those that have the conviction to refuse blood believe that if it results in their death (which they'd prefer not to have happen) that God will reward their faithfullness. Clearly it's folly to those who don't believe and not to those who do.

I've browsed through some of this thread and I get great amusement at those who are sure of everything because lets be brutally honest no one can be sure of anything. I watched a show last night on the Discovery channel about a voyage through our solar system and further. Personally I don't know what to believe but whether we choose evolution, creation, God or a bit of everything the fact remains that we have to accept that something has been here forever and without a beginning. It's always been here even if it's just a group of elements. That to me is a mind boggling thought.

Almost Canadian

Isn't the Earth going to be inherited by 144,000 though? If it is, then I am sure that there are more than 144,000 more deserving than me that have already died or are left on the Earth.

Simon Legree

It has always puzzled me that if only 144,000 are going to inherit the earth why do they keep pestering me ? Surly there are already more than 144,000 J Ws world wide so why do they persist in trying to recruit more ? Wouldn't that mean that some of their existing followers wouldn't make the cut ? Hmmm.

stepnek

No. They believe the bible says that a select 144,000 faithful ones will have a resurrection to heaven and the rest will be able to look forward to everlasting life on a post Armageddon paradise earth.