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Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd
(Post 12742015)
I agree that a clean break is a tall order....the UK has been increasingly integrated and involved with the EU, but one can hope. However I am confused as to why you would you need common documentation for the UK to trade with the EU? ..... other countries that trade with each other don't have that.... NAFTA or what ever its new agreement is called, doesn't have and an agreement like that as far as I am aware? the US Canada and Mexico have no common laws, regulations currency open borders or documentation? but still have a good trade deal between the 3 countries?
The first company I worked for was and Engineering company who were manufacturers of pressure vessels, we would often make "tweaks" in the design of our vessels to satisfy French and German design code standards so we could sell to those countries, a common European standard makes everything a lot more convenient, like a common currency does, but its not a necessity to trade. Common documentation of livestock is important as, without it, animals have to be inspected and certified at borders; that's where the mass slaughter of sheep comes into Brexit. Since a full set of common standards exists between the EU countries and the UK conforms at present it will be up to the UK to decide how far to diverge. I suppose a move to US gallons and 16oz pints might make sense, maybe Halal methods of slaughter, though all of these complicate trade with the EU. Other than that, I expect it'll be driven by bloody mindedness. Common documentation of people, a shared passport, allows the absence of borders between nations; who now wants to have to buy a visa and go through an inspection just to go to France? It's a pita in going from Canada to the US. |
Re: PM Boris
Johnson isn't just about Brexit, of course, steering government funds to an ineligible American he was bonking is more likely to bring him down.
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Re: PM Boris
[QUOTE=dbd33;12742021
As the UK re-adopts imperial measures and LSD currency,...... I suppose a move to US gallons and 16oz pints might make sense, maybe Halal methods of slaughter....[/QUOTE] Pheeeewww... I can breathe a huge sigh of relief. Until now, I thought you were making serious arguments, but no longer, Admit it, you're a closet Leaver, it's just that you don't want anyone to know. Come join us, we live in a big tent. |
Re: PM Boris
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Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd
(Post 12742015)
I agree that a clean break is a tall order....the UK has been increasingly integrated and involved with the EU, but one can hope. However I am confused as to why you would you need common documentation for the UK to trade with the EU? ..... other countries that trade with each other don't have that.... NAFTA or what ever its new agreement is called, doesn't have and an agreement like that as far as I am aware? the US Canada and Mexico have no common laws, regulations currency open borders or documentation? but still have a good trade deal between the 3 countries?
The first company I worked for was and Engineering company who were manufacturers of pressure vessels, we would often make "tweaks" in the design of our vessels to satisfy French and German design code standards so we could sell to those countries, a common European standard makes everything a lot more convenient, like a common currency does, but its not a necessity to trade. NAFTA (and its replacement CUSMA) is skewed in favor of the US. Within the EU, smaller countries are equal to the larger countries (a level playing field), and have a stronger voice in the making of those regulations. |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee
(Post 12742118)
If I manufacture and ship a product from Canada to the US, it still needs to meet all applicable US regulations, and be documented as doing so. Some of those regulations may be slightly different to Canadian ones. Common rules across multiple countries still need common documentation.
NAFTA (and its replacement CUSMA) is skewed in favor of the US. Within the EU, smaller countries are equal to the larger countries (a level playing field), and have a stronger voice in the making of those regulations. |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by dbd33
(Post 12741386)
The idea that things can be simple is a leaver fantasy "a clean break" is an expression they use for leaving. It can't be. If you want easy trade then you need not to have borders and you need common standards for everything, people can come and go freely so you need common documentation for them. Administrative convergence is inevitable but that doesn't mean cultural convergence; you still can't sell jellied eels or Marmite in Greece or Germany because, culturally, people are conditioned against loving these things.
Has anyone seriously suggested that citizens from the UK or the EU will require a visa for vacation travel between the two blocks? |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
(Post 12742225)
The whole point of a trade agreement is to avoid the usual issues that arise when one crosses a border for the goods and services that are dealt with in the agreement. Freedom of travel of people is not necessarily tied to any such agreement. I appreciate that the EU allows such movement but, for example, Canada's agreement with the EU and TIPP does not allow for free movement of people.
Has anyone seriously suggested that citizens from the UK or the EU will require a visa for vacation travel between the two blocks? |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
(Post 12742225)
The whole point of a trade agreement is to avoid the usual issues that arise when one crosses a border for the goods and services that are dealt with in the agreement. Freedom of travel of people is not necessarily tied to any such agreement. I appreciate that the EU allows such movement but, for example, Canada's agreement with the EU and TIPP does not allow for free movement of people.
Has anyone seriously suggested that citizens from the UK or the EU will require a visa for vacation travel between the two blocks? I do understand that free movement of goods and of people are not tied to each other but they do relate; if, for example, you manufacture a product in the UK and want to sell it in the EU, there might be a need to provide supporting expertise, long or short term, for that product. That's much easier if there are no constraints on the movement of workers. Perhaps if one did not have ideal trading conditions today one might not introduce them. That's quite different from having such good conditions and choosing to give them up. |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by dbd33
(Post 12742021)
Of course nations trade with no commonality, the EU trades with many nations. It's just easier if things are consistent. As the UK re-adopts imperial measures and LSD currency, trades will become more complicated. Pipes and fittings will all need adaptors. No one will understand our money. Goods will have to be repackaged at Rotterdam.
Common documentation of livestock is important as, without it, animals have to be inspected and certified at borders; that's where the mass slaughter of sheep comes into Brexit. Since a full set of common standards exists between the EU countries and the UK conforms at present it will be up to the UK to decide how far to diverge. I suppose a move to US gallons and 16oz pints might make sense, maybe Halal methods of slaughter, though all of these complicate trade with the EU. Other than that, I expect it'll be driven by bloody mindedness. Common documentation of people, a shared passport, allows the absence of borders between nations; who now wants to have to buy a visa and go through an inspection just to go to France? It's a pita in going from Canada to the US. Common regulations makes things easier and convenient, but its not a huge hurdle to overcome.....as I said in the first company I worked for, we exported to many different countries, we changed our design accordingly....and usually it didnt differ too much , its just about convenience really, but the downside of having common rules and regulations can be more than losing some convenience. For example going back to the small manufacturing company I worked for as an example,.....if smaller companies are forced to adopt new European design regulations, they may not be able to afford the cost of doing so, before hand, they had a choice weather they wanted to build a pressure vessel to another design code. . I think some of the EU rules and regulations are not in interests of some EU countries, especially the smaller less wealthy countries, but are forced to adopt them anyway....it kind of goes back to my point about culture and economic differences between the EU counties, whats suits one country may not suit another. As for needing a visa to visit France....thats never going to happen...passport yes, visa no. |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by dbd33
(Post 12742023)
Johnson isn't just about Brexit, of course, steering government funds to an ineligible American he was bonking is more likely to bring him down.
But the bar is so low these days it will probably take something more. Perhaps he'll criticise the queen mum or Vera Lynn. |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
(Post 12742223)
They have a stronger voice than non-EU countries but, insofar as most regulations are concerned, they do not have a veto so regulations can be enacted that are adverse to their interests.
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
(Post 12742225)
Has anyone seriously suggested that citizens from the UK or the EU will require a visa for vacation travel between the two blocks?
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Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd
(Post 12742257)
There is only one country that still wants to hold on to imperial measures....and it wont be the UK.
Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd
(Post 12742257)
For example going back to the small manufacturing company I worked for as an example,.....if smaller companies are forced to adopt new European design regulations, they may not be able to afford the cost of doing so, before hand, they had a choice weather they wanted to build a pressure vessel to another design code. . I think some of the EU rules and regulations are not in interests of some EU countries, especially the smaller less wealthy countries, but are forced to adopt them anyway....it kind of goes back to my point about culture and economic differences between the EU counties, whats suits one country may not suit another.
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Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd
(Post 12742257)
As for needing a visa to visit France....thats never going to happen...passport yes, visa no.
Visa, no. Pre-entry clearance (ETIAS), most definitely from 2021. And they won't be boarding the plane or ferry to France without one. |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by dbd33
(Post 12742261)
Surely UK companies are in conformance with EU standards now. You seem to be making an argument for not joining the EU rather than leaving it.
Changing UK standards post-Brexit would potentially be expensive for UK companies. But if those standards aren't likely to change, what was the reason for leaving? |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee
(Post 12742267)
But if those standards aren't likely to change, what was the reason for leaving?
There was a referendum and people, normal people, voted to leave. It had nothing to do with manufacturing standards, visas, the pound etc but everything to do with whether they felt the EU and politics in general was doing anything to make their life better. Those in power, the establishment, the bankers in fact anyone doing well put the case that being in the EU was a good thing and ignored anyone who thought differently. Well, I've got news for them, people not only didn't believe them they knew that staying in wouldn't change anything and as usual they were being told what to do and reacted against it. Any student of human nature would have understood this, but politicians etc were so absorbed with themselves that they simply couldn't conceive of the unimaginable. In the years that have passed without any action whatsoever, feelings will have hardened and anyone promising to leave will do well. This is the real reason an election is being delayed. Johnson might be an idiot, but I strongly suspect he understands this basic truth. |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by dave_j
(Post 12742297)
I keep hammering the same nail into the EU coffin, but many posters still don't get it.
There was a referendum and people, normal people, voted to leave. It had nothing to do with manufacturing standards, visas, the pound etc but everything to do with whether they felt the EU and politics in general was doing anything to make their life better. Those in power, the establishment, the bankers in fact anyone doing well put the case that being in the EU was a good thing and ignored anyone who thought differently. Well, I've got news for them, people not only didn't believe them they knew that staying in wouldn't change anything and as usual they were being told what to do and reacted against it. Any student of human nature would have understood this, but politicians etc were so absorbed with themselves that they simply couldn't conceive of the unimaginable. In the years that have passed without any action whatsoever, feelings will have hardened and anyone promising to leave will do well. This is the real reason an election is being delayed. Johnson might be an idiot, but I strongly suspect he understands this basic truth. |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by dbd33
(Post 12742298)
So, in short, the case for leaving is that, although everything will be worse, it'll feel better. That truly is more stupid than electing Trump.
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Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee
(Post 12742263)
Passport, yes.
Visa, no. Pre-entry clearance (ETIAS), most definitely from 2021. And they won't be boarding the plane or ferry to France without one. |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by dbd33
(Post 12742261)
What if the UK wants closer trade ties with the US?
Surely UK companies are in conformance with EU standards now. You seem to be making an argument for not joining the EU rather than leaving it. To your first point,l as Canada is a metric country, its would be mo different than a Canadian manufacturing company exporting to the US... machines we built had to be in imperial....whereas other machines were metric, we had to work in both metric and imperial, its something i have done ever since working in Canada. |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by Shard
(Post 12742237)
Just putting on my AC hat for a moment, what do you think about the idea of US states and Canadian provinces restricting residency rights. Is there any reason that just because goods flow around the country people need to too?
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Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by dbd33
(Post 12742256)
I've seen it suggested, how seriously I don't know, I would believe pretty much anything of the Brexiteers, including a return to LSD and/or wide lapels.
I do understand that free movement of goods and of people are not tied to each other but they do relate; if, for example, you manufacture a product in the UK and want to sell it in the EU, there might be a need to provide supporting expertise, long or short term, for that product. That's much easier if there are no constraints on the movement of workers. Perhaps if one did not have ideal trading conditions today one might not introduce them. That's quite different from having such good conditions and choosing to give them up. |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by dbd33
(Post 12742298)
So, in short, the case for leaving is that, although everything will be worse, it'll feel better. That truly is more stupid than electing Trump.
Blue passports, Up Yours Delors! |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by dbd33
(Post 12742298)
So, in short, the case for leaving is that, although everything will be worse, it'll feel better. That truly is more stupid than electing Trump.
Making logical arguments for staying, eg things will get worse, will make little impact and whether you like it or not the next election will be all about brexit and political parties who ignore this don't deserve to do well. For example if Labour think that party will trump leave then they're in for a shock. You might argue that voting leave was stupid and you imply that those who voted leave are stupid. It's attitudes like this, expressed by politicians and pundits in general, that'll ensure the leave vote will harden. |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by dave_j
(Post 12742364)
I agree that many reasons for the leave vote were more emotional than otherwise, but burying your head in the sand won't change the fact that it happened, ask yourself why rather than simply arguing that it was wrong or dismissing possible explanations as waffle.
Making logical arguments for staying, eg things will get worse, will make little impact and whether you like it or not the next election will be all about brexit and political parties who ignore this don't deserve to do well. For example if Labour think that party will trump leave then they're in for a shock. You might argue that voting leave was stupid and you imply that those who voted leave are stupid. It's attitudes like this, expressed by politicians and pundits in general, that'll ensure the leave vote will harden. |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by dave_j
(Post 12742297)
I keep hammering the same nail into the EU coffin, but many posters still don't get it.
There was a referendum and people, normal people, voted to leave. Some people. Not "the" people. Not the country. Not the nation. Just over a third. Some people. Some people outnumbered by almost 2-1. It had nothing to do with manufacturing standards, visas, the pound etc but everything to do with whether they felt the EU and politics in general was doing anything to make their life better. All of those 37% did not vote for the complete cut-off, no-deal, anymore than those voting to remain were 100% happy with staying and no changes. |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by dave_j
(Post 12742364)
Making logical arguments for staying, eg things will get worse, will make little impact...
This is a bit like some undiscovered Island tribe sacrificing a virgin to some malevolent god and just standing by watching. :rofl: |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by BristolUK
(Post 12742372)
Just think about that for a few seconds. This is a bit like some undiscovered Island tribe sacrificing a virgin to some malevolent god and just standing by watching.
To understand the leave vote you must try to understand their mindset, their values are not the same as yours. |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by Jingsamichty
(Post 12742366)
Since 2016 a lot has changed, especially demographically. Pretending that 52% of the current population still want Brexit is also burying your head in the sand.
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Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by dave_j
(Post 12742378)
Absolutely, but it has happened. Some groups did engage in sacrifice. It isn't logical to us but these groups allowed it to happen and to them it made sense. Applying our values ensure that we can never understand their reasoning.. you have to think like them.
To understand the leave vote you must try to understand their mindset, their values are not the same as yours. |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by Jingsamichty
(Post 12742366)
Since 2016 a lot has changed, especially demographically. Pretending that 52% of the current population still want Brexit is also burying your head in the sand.
The whole thing reminds me of a daughter, then teenaged, tearing up her Platinum card and throwing it at me. She now lives in Afghanistan. I can only wish the same outcome for Johnson, Cummings and Farage. |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
(Post 12742352)
Are you talking about states and provinces being able to restrict citizens of the country/PRs from being able to move around within the country or non citizens/PRs being able to live and work there?
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Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by dbd33
(Post 12742382)
I mildly object to the idea that I've been burying my head in the sand. I thought Brexit was just what the locals here call a "hissy fit". I've asked repeatedly if there was a rational argument for it, just in case I missed it. All we've had is fishing rights and kicking out the foreigners.
The whole thing reminds me of a daughter, then teenaged, tearing up her Platinum card and throwing it at me. She now lives in Afghanistan. I can only wish the same outcome for Johnson, Cummings and Farage. |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by Shard
(Post 12742400)
Citizens, as that's the parallel with the EU.
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Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by dbd33
(Post 12742382)
I mildly object to the idea that I've been burying my head in the sand. I thought Brexit was just what the locals here call a "hissy fit". I've asked repeatedly if there was a rational argument for it, just in case I missed it. All we've had is fishing rights and kicking out the foreigners.
The whole thing reminds me of a daughter, then teenaged, tearing up her Platinum card and throwing it at me. She now lives in Afghanistan. I can only wish the same outcome for Johnson, Cummings and Farage. |
Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
(Post 12742420)
No it isn't. One is a country, one is a collection of countries.
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Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd
(Post 12742406)
And the fact that the whole EU is increasingly heading towards a United States of Europe concept, which a lot of people don't want, as it would never work.
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Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by dave_j
(Post 12742378)
...Applying our values ensure that we can never understand their reasoning.. ...
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Re: PM Boris
We've been enjoy this video on another thread. One of the fine Brexit folk giving some solid reasons for getting OUT.
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Re: PM Boris
Originally Posted by Shard
(Post 12742439)
I see. Wouldn't it be good if the "collection of countries" could agree some kind of mechanism, an international treaty perhaps, that afforded them the efficiencies of the one big country. I know it's nice to keep one's head in the 1970's, but wouldn't a bit of geopolitical evolution be a good thing? Do you think there might be some synergies to be had?
Please argue against my arguments and leave the personal attacks in your head where they belong. |
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