Re: PM Boris
 

No, it's like saying that had Remain won, that meant joining the Euro and a new European Army, and all speaking French or German.

Re: PM Boris
 

I accept that. But I would assume that those clever people in Parliament would have been able to come upon with a way that ensured that the election had to occur by mid October. It seems they couldn't and, if Boris is the crafty bastard they believe him to be, I can foresee that he will find a way to ensure that, come October 31, 2019, the UK leaves the EU with no deal.

Re: PM Boris
 

Well the crafty bastard is Cummings, not Johnson who would be better described as an egomaniacal incompetent. But yes, the HoC couldn't find a way to stop the pair of them shifting the date once a 2/3rd majority had authorised an election writ. That's why they passed the No-Deal/ Extension Request Law and will wait for action on that law before approving an election.

It's not that hard to follow the events of today.

Re: PM Boris
 

Re: PM Boris
 

Oh I agree it's exciting. Last week was riveting. I was even watching Parliament Live. I haven't done anything like that since the 80s.

By being glad I'm not living there I meant with reference to things like being at work, hearing a couple of people talking about it in daily mail or sun style and trying not to react. :tape:

Re: PM Boris
 

This is whole problem with leave, it means different things to to different leave voters. Some wanted out of everything, some only wanted out of the political institutions, some only the economic.

Re: PM Boris
 

Maybe. But leaving meant to leave. If that wasn't researched properly by people before they voted, or if the remain campaign didn't make that abundantly clear, it doesn't alter the fact that it is impossible to remain and also to leave. It appears to me that the remain campaign dropped the ball. I accept that some will try to argue about the lies the leave campaign put forward, but, if the benefit of staying were so good, that should have been made clear by the remain campaign, such that no one in their right mind would have voted to leave.

Re: PM Boris
 

No mention that here https://www.ecb.europa.eu/explainers...tricht.en.html

Re: PM Boris
 

Fascinating long read article on David Cameron which rather agrees with that here:: https://members.tortoisemedia.com/20...rding_20190907

Re: PM Boris
 

Have you been converted to Manichaeism? Look it up and you'll find it was a Dualistic religion which considered everything was either "Good" or "Evil" with no middle ground.

If that's a bit too heavy for you to deal with, try 50 Shades of Grey.

Re: PM Boris
 

It's quite a challenge to explain to the public the extent of economic and legal integration that exists between the two countries. Even you as a lawyer do not seem to grasp that this is different from a divorce between two individuals. We're not going to stop trading with the EU, we're not going to stop investing in each others markets or employing each others citizens. So it becomes a question of the most efficient way to do that. What is the point of a complete break if we then need to spend a decade trying to replicate what we already have.

Re: PM Boris
 

Re: PM Boris
 

Converted? I've called AC a black & white thinker so many times over the years that I'm embarrassed to keep pointing it out.

Re: PM Boris
 

I've worked in Supply Chain and Logistics most of my career. The integration of supply chains across Europe & the seamless customs processes are a mystery to most of the Great British public, especially the Leaver types. I fear they are all in for a rude awakening come the dawn of a no deal Brexit.

Re: PM Boris
 

I suggest you give your head a shake and then review the question that was posed in 2016.

Re: PM Boris
 

Yes, I think they are. In the regulated industries (finance, insurance, pharmaceuticals, etc.) there is also huge amount of 'under the bonnet' integration which will seize up should we leave with No Deal. I am pleased that the government's Yellowhammer report will be made available to the public as it will at least give some people pause for thought.

Re: PM Boris
 

Challenging it may have been but that was what each side had to do.

I don't believe that I have ever stated that the referendum in 2016 was remotely similar to a divorce. Of course, I will completely apologise to you if you can show me where I did.

It also appears to me that that the EU and the UK were relatively close to agreeing upon how to proceed to look to agree in the future and, if your version of history is correct, this was done by May in a relatively short period of time. It will not serve the interests of either party to take "10 years" to reach an agreement and, once again, it appears that you wish to look at everything from a negative perspective.

Re: PM Boris
 

Yo Shard, as requested:

Re: PM Boris
 

Which, as either Jings or Oakvillian pointed out earlier, was ludicrous.

Re: PM Boris
 

Where did I suggest that it wasn't? That's right, I haven't.

Changing the "rules" after the result doesn't alter that.

Re: PM Boris
 

I don't dispute that the remain side was some what complacent in 2016.

You didn't state the the referendum was like a divorce. I'm simply trying to figure why you keep insisting that there's no such thing as a partial Brexit, and I am guessing that you are viewing it through the lens of divorce law. This is not about the referendum question being binary, it's about the implementation of the Leave vote.

My negative perspective is on a No Deal Brexit. It will be utter chaos, no ifs, no buts (as Boris would say). As to a WA style Brexit (which you don't seem to recognise) I am grudgingly accepting that it might be the only way forward when half the country is so unwilling to inform themselves. That's not to say all leavers are uninformed, there are a great many that are informed and have a different analysis; what concerns me is the lump that are keen to leave the EU for all the wrong reasons.

Re: PM Boris
 

Ah, I see. You think the Manichean choice was ludicrous, but given that neither choice was well defined ,it's somehow a God given imperative?
Remain was fairly clear, but obfuscated by Cameron's very poor tactics and frankly his inability to be a leader. Leave on the other hand was guaranteed by all Leave protagonists (all of them, check it out) to not mean leaving the customs Union or the Single Market.

There was an option to Leave gently by joining the EEA, but that disappeared when a panicking May set out her stupid, mutually exclusive Red Lines in her speech and then triggered A50 with absolutely no idea of her goals (although she should have figured to they'd all be penalties).

We no longer have a Conservative Party in the UK (nor even in England which soon be all that's left of the UK). We have two Brexit Parties lead by two egomaniacs.

Happy days, jet be happy you no longer have a say.

Re: PM Boris
 

But changing the "rules," as you put it - or deciding on a different course of action as a result of considered analysis of the implications - is PRECISELY what the general public elects Members of Parliament to do. That is what they're there for. For the last three years it's been clear to anyone with at least one eye and half a brain that the referendum was hopelessly flawed, both in its premise and in its execution. That much has become even more obvious as it has become clearer that it's impossible to "honour" the result of the referendum without a whole hell of a lot more work put in first to answer some of the more intransigent questions, relating to trade relationships, regulatory arrangements, the Irish border, and so on and so on.

Parliament has, as is its duty, decided in the national interest - and against the rather extraordinary position of the government (beholden as it is to a small faction in its own party) - to prohibit by law a no-deal exit from the EU. If the government can't come up with an acceptable alternative then the only possible solution is to rescind Article 50 and, if necessary, start again when everybody's calmed down a bit.

Re: PM Boris
 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49646544
It would seem that Corbyn and his Labour Party is to follow the the path of other inconvenient referenda, that of repeating them until you get the 'right' answer.

Re: PM Boris
 

Good idea. We should always aim at the right answer. No idea why this is controversial.

Re: PM Boris
 

Are you F*&^ing serious? I have constantly referred to it. You know, the one that was rejected a number of times by your representatives.

Do you not believe that you are completely arrogant when you say that people are keen to leave the EU for all the wrong reasons. How dare you believe that your reasons are more "right" than theirs?

As I have said above, I don't like the result, but I would never suggest that my opinion is superior to the opinion of any other.

Re: PM Boris
 

Are you prepared to balance your obvious disdain for the Cons by stating that Lab completely screwed up their campaign to remain too?

Re: PM Boris
 

You'll have to explain to me how implementation of the result, as proposed by the SNP and the Libs, is in any way related to the decision that the electorate provided.

If you say so.

Re: PM Boris
 

You will note that I placed the word right in quotation marks to ensure that it wasn't to be taken literally.
It's clear that the 17.4M who rightly thought the referendum result to be 'right' were right but apparently this 'right' result wasn't sufficiently right to satisfy the self righteous 16.1M, hence the controversy.

Re: PM Boris
 

Isn't that what your signature suggests? :lol:

Re: PM Boris
 

I can't argue with that.

Re: PM Boris
 

It's clear that as long as the UK is no longer a member of the EU after a certain point in time, that the referendum result will have been respected. The referendum question didn't state deal or no deal, just Leave or Remain.

It's also clear that many who were entitled to vote in the referendum, either through not receiving ballot papers in time or at all, or because they weren't interested enough to change the status quo.

Parliament's duty is to consider the best interests of the UK, over and above the result of an advisory referendum, no matter who states that the will of the people would be respected.

And 52%-48% wasn't going to be good enough for Farage if the result had gone to Leave. He called it 'unfinished business'.

Re: PM Boris
 

We hear people who voted leave because "Europe makes all our laws" or "we have too many African/ME immigrants" or "they want to shut down our army". Really misinformed incorrect stuff. Their reasoning is wrong simple as that. If you're willing to place your opinion on the same level as someone ignorant of the facts, that is your perogative.

Re: PM Boris
 

I voted Remain, I am an internationalist, I despise nationalism. The result of the referendum bitterly disappointed me at the time and it still does to this day.

The parliamentarians who have fought tooth and nail to minimise the damage that this referendum result will cause to the UK are, in my opinion, national heroes. They have worked tirelessly in the face of terrible, dreadful abuse by certain sections of the media and the populace. For what? For the best interests of the UK as a whole, not just pandering to the lazy and ignorant lie that it's "what the people really want".

But part of me wants the Leavers to realise the fruits of their labours. Part of me wants to be in a position to say "I told you so". I even saw a Daily Mail headline last year, I think, that screamed "Now the EU wants to charge Brits to go on holiday!" - yes, you voted to end freedom of movement, that works both ways, Alf Garnett.

That's my dilemma... how often do you try to reason with a toddler that pulling the cat's tail is a dumb idea before you let him find out the truth for himself?

Re: PM Boris
 

There definitely seems to be a fault line between the internationalists and nationalists. I've met Brits living in France and Germany that still have a 1940s mentality, and nothing but disdain for Europeans. Plenty on this side of the Channel too. It's very unfortunate that we have a press that stoke these resentments and of course, BoJo was (and is) very much part of that breed. I think that's a core problem with this debate, that it strikes at personal identity. Remainers are able to deal with a layered identity, but Leavers want to cling on to the exceptionalism of being British. Prior to the referendum I thought that as a nation we had moved on from that, but apparently not.

It's hard to see how the country moves on as whatever happens half of it will be disatisfied. Leavers will cry foul if we don't leave; Remainers will bemoan the diminished opportunity if we do.

Re: PM Boris
 

The fundamental problem is that we, the electorate, continue to choose representatives who don't actually have the best interests of the country at heart. We elect too many single-issue parties, too many charming spivs, too many snake oil salesmen, too many out-of-touch aristos.

The rest of it - the media, political spinners, political spammers - is all just the support mechanism for those attempts to keep us voting for one vested interest or another.

Re: PM Boris
 

I have that too. Of course the value of my UK pension(s) will go down - every time Brexit moves closer the £ falls and every time it's delayed the £ recovers - though not to the level it was prior to the referendum. But I get a certain amount of protection in Canada in that my OAS will go up in the event of other income falling.

So it's easier for me to say serves you silly buggers right. But I would love to be able to say that to one of my brothers. Silly bugger. :sneaky:

Re: PM Boris
 

I think some of the people we elect do have the best intentions of the UK at heart, and some others also start out that way but either become like those in it for themselves or they get frustrated with the system and don't bother standing again.

The system needs to change. I accept that political parties will never go away in my lifetime, but I believe that the best way would be to elect every MP as an Independent through PR (STV, or a combination of). Change the layout of the HoC from a battle formation to a circular one where MPs need to work together instead of an us v them mentality, Such a layout works in the Welsh Senedd and in the EU Parliament, why not in Westminster

The PM should be elected separately, and their Cabinet Ministers approved by a majority vote of MPs, much like the EU Parliament approves (or not) EU Commissioners and EU department Presidents.

Once we've changed the HoC, then we'll start on the HoL, which actually does it's job well considering the brickbats it gets from the media and public.

Re: PM Boris
 

Twas always thus and is alive and kicking in the EU where each nation state seeks to ensure that it's national interest remains uppermost in EU decision making.
Nothing wrong with that, but arguments that suggest Leavers are nationalist demons whereas Remainers support the utopian ideal are simplistic to suggest the least.
A recent example of utopian action saw the Greek nation put to the sword to save German banks and of course there's the old chestnut of distorted support for french farmers.
The idea that the EU is some benevolent entity existing for the benefit of all doesn't live comfortably with the truth.
I don't mind the EU doing their utmost to stop the UK from leaving the club, what I find difficult, and it's exemplified by posts here, that anyone supporting the Leave campaign must somehow be saved from themselves. Those posters protest too much methinks.

Re: PM Boris
 

Not anyone, just some of the people.

What do you suggest in this scenario Dave, the French decide they're a bit tired of chasing after North African economic migrants seeking to leave the EU and dismantle their camps. The trickle of boat migrants we are now receiving turns into a flood. Britain appeals to France/EU to control their borders, but they say it's not their problem. How should Britain react?