I find this very disturbing.
Apr 4th 2008, 10:01 pm
#76
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,020
Apr 5th 2008, 4:07 am
#77
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2008
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 896
Re: I find this very disturbing.
I don't need the skeptics Bible - I believe the real one.
And countries are indeed described by their faith as you well know...ie A Muslim Country...etc etc.
As you seem to be quite intelligent I think you do know what I mean when I say the law of the Bible and PC crap - however I do not know what you mean that T Blair and GW Bush are theist?
And countries are indeed described by their faith as you well know...ie A Muslim Country...etc etc.
As you seem to be quite intelligent I think you do know what I mean when I say the law of the Bible and PC crap - however I do not know what you mean that T Blair and GW Bush are theist?
Apr 5th 2008, 6:20 am
#78
Cheesey Dippin-Dunkin
Joined: Feb 2008
Location: London Outskirts
Posts: 1,161
Re: I find this very disturbing.
See what I mean about home educators getting a bad press...perhaps this is the difference between home educated and home schooled - Edders - get taught by means of becoming independent learners, schoolers get taught the same way as at school...crap shoveled every day??? if you want to go that route...personally, I don't believe many home educators/schoolers do...like always it will be only the extremists you hear about.
Apr 5th 2008, 6:39 am
#79
Just Joined
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario
Posts: 26
Re: I find this very disturbing.
And the earth is flat and the sun revolves around it, didn't ya know? Well it is an age old argument that my co-workers and I discuss from time to time. I think they might both be right, in the film. I follow no religilon in particular, but I do belive in Karma and The Golden Rule. However disturbing this video may be, I am for more worried about how it will all end. If this weblite I found has but a stitch of truth we are all in for it. Skeptics beware- this website will challange most conventional belifes. keep an open mind, as the connectivity of the research is well founded. http://survive2012.com
Last edited by Thorstien; Apr 5th 2008 at 6:52 am. Reason: bad grammar
Apr 5th 2008, 4:36 pm
#80
Born again atheist
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Europe (to be specified).
Posts: 30,259
Re: I find this very disturbing.
And the earth is flat and the sun revolves around it, didn't ya know? Well it is an age old argument that my co-workers and I discuss from time to time. I think they might both be right, in the film. I follow no religilon in particular, but I do belive in Karma and The Golden Rule. However disturbing this video may be, I am for more worried about how it will all end. If this weblite I found has but a stitch of truth we are all in for it. Skeptics beware- this website will challange most conventional belifes. keep an open mind, as the connectivity of the research is well founded. http://survive2012.com
http://weatheroffice.gc.ca/city/page..._metric_e.html
You can go outside now. It's been a while, hasn't it?
Apr 6th 2008, 1:18 am
#81
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Sep 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,152
Re: I find this very disturbing.
I was brought up with a religious belief as a JW before slipping slowly away from the organization some ten years ago. Naturally, I was taught that we were created and I don't have a problem with that understanding even now although I'm no more convinced of it as I am of evolution.
The video makes a mockery of believing in creation because the bible doesn't talk about six twenty-four hour days for God to create the earth it just says days which could mean an undetermined period of time. After all a day on the planet Saturn is different to a day on earth so if there really is a creator of the universe and everything in it then he or she is hardly likely to be working on a twenty-four hour schedule.
But all we have is circumstantial evidence given to us by either those who believe in science or those or believe in God and creation. God tends to get quite a bad press these days so evolution is believed as fact because it would seriously worry most people if they suddenly found themselves being held accountable to a powerful almighty looking down from on high. People don't want God in their lives, it makes no sense to them and it's easier and fashionable to not have a faith.
I doubt many people look closely into the evidence supplied to try and prove evolution but I'd like see some fossils for the real in-between stages. I mean which was the creature that at one point was stumbling around blindly before it evolved an eye. And how did that eye develop? Did it just appear or was their a creature with half an eye to start with.? A kind of prototype perhaps. Apply that same thought to all the other senses that give us so much appreciation for the nice things in life. I'd like to see evidence of this kind of development but I'm not convinced it's been found so far. Instead we just have fossil remains of different creatures that have lived in the past.
On the other hand how did God get here? The bible says he had no beginning. So how can that be so?
I have no answers but I don't think anyone else can really have either. Everyone can make an opinion but as Rete said there's no need to abuse and ridicule someone else's beliefs. It's just important that our children are given the information that we have and then be encouraged to make up their own minds. Science is being modified all the time so it can no more be counted on as gospel anymore than...well the gospel can.
The video makes a mockery of believing in creation because the bible doesn't talk about six twenty-four hour days for God to create the earth it just says days which could mean an undetermined period of time. After all a day on the planet Saturn is different to a day on earth so if there really is a creator of the universe and everything in it then he or she is hardly likely to be working on a twenty-four hour schedule.
But all we have is circumstantial evidence given to us by either those who believe in science or those or believe in God and creation. God tends to get quite a bad press these days so evolution is believed as fact because it would seriously worry most people if they suddenly found themselves being held accountable to a powerful almighty looking down from on high. People don't want God in their lives, it makes no sense to them and it's easier and fashionable to not have a faith.
I doubt many people look closely into the evidence supplied to try and prove evolution but I'd like see some fossils for the real in-between stages. I mean which was the creature that at one point was stumbling around blindly before it evolved an eye. And how did that eye develop? Did it just appear or was their a creature with half an eye to start with.? A kind of prototype perhaps. Apply that same thought to all the other senses that give us so much appreciation for the nice things in life. I'd like to see evidence of this kind of development but I'm not convinced it's been found so far. Instead we just have fossil remains of different creatures that have lived in the past.
On the other hand how did God get here? The bible says he had no beginning. So how can that be so?
I have no answers but I don't think anyone else can really have either. Everyone can make an opinion but as Rete said there's no need to abuse and ridicule someone else's beliefs. It's just important that our children are given the information that we have and then be encouraged to make up their own minds. Science is being modified all the time so it can no more be counted on as gospel anymore than...well the gospel can.
Apr 6th 2008, 6:09 am
#82
Cheesey Dippin-Dunkin
Joined: Feb 2008
Location: London Outskirts
Posts: 1,161
Re: I find this very disturbing.
I was brought up with a religious belief as a JW before slipping slowly away from the organization some ten years ago. Naturally, I was taught that we were created and I don't have a problem with that understanding even now although I'm no more convinced of it as I am of evolution.
The video makes a mockery of believing in creation because the bible doesn't talk about six twenty-four hour days for God to create the earth it just says days which could mean an undetermined period of time. After all a day on the planet Saturn is different to a day on earth so if there really is a creator of the universe and everything in it then he or she is hardly likely to be working on a twenty-four hour schedule.
But all we have is circumstantial evidence given to us by either those who believe in science or those or believe in God and creation. God tends to get quite a bad press these days so evolution is believed as fact because it would seriously worry most people if they suddenly found themselves being held accountable to a powerful almighty looking down from on high. People don't want God in their lives, it makes no sense to them and it's easier and fashionable to not have a faith.
I doubt many people look closely into the evidence supplied to try and prove evolution but I'd like see some fossils for the real in-between stages. I mean which was the creature that at one point was stumbling around blindly before it evolved an eye. And how did that eye develop? Did it just appear or was their a creature with half an eye to start with.? A kind of prototype perhaps. Apply that same thought to all the other senses that give us so much appreciation for the nice things in life. I'd like to see evidence of this kind of development but I'm not convinced it's been found so far. Instead we just have fossil remains of different creatures that have lived in the past.
On the other hand how did God get here? The bible says he had no beginning. So how can that be so?
I have no answers but I don't think anyone else can really have either. Everyone can make an opinion but as Rete said there's no need to abuse and ridicule someone else's beliefs. It's just important that our children are given the information that we have and then be encouraged to make up their own minds. Science is being modified all the time so it can no more be counted on as gospel anymore than...well the gospel can.
The video makes a mockery of believing in creation because the bible doesn't talk about six twenty-four hour days for God to create the earth it just says days which could mean an undetermined period of time. After all a day on the planet Saturn is different to a day on earth so if there really is a creator of the universe and everything in it then he or she is hardly likely to be working on a twenty-four hour schedule.
But all we have is circumstantial evidence given to us by either those who believe in science or those or believe in God and creation. God tends to get quite a bad press these days so evolution is believed as fact because it would seriously worry most people if they suddenly found themselves being held accountable to a powerful almighty looking down from on high. People don't want God in their lives, it makes no sense to them and it's easier and fashionable to not have a faith.
I doubt many people look closely into the evidence supplied to try and prove evolution but I'd like see some fossils for the real in-between stages. I mean which was the creature that at one point was stumbling around blindly before it evolved an eye. And how did that eye develop? Did it just appear or was their a creature with half an eye to start with.? A kind of prototype perhaps. Apply that same thought to all the other senses that give us so much appreciation for the nice things in life. I'd like to see evidence of this kind of development but I'm not convinced it's been found so far. Instead we just have fossil remains of different creatures that have lived in the past.
On the other hand how did God get here? The bible says he had no beginning. So how can that be so?
I have no answers but I don't think anyone else can really have either. Everyone can make an opinion but as Rete said there's no need to abuse and ridicule someone else's beliefs. It's just important that our children are given the information that we have and then be encouraged to make up their own minds. Science is being modified all the time so it can no more be counted on as gospel anymore than...well the gospel can.
Apr 6th 2008, 2:52 pm
#83
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 6,842
Re: I find this very disturbing.
Bainwashing our youth
Apr 6th 2008, 5:04 pm
#84
Islander
Joined: Jun 2005
Location: Toronto, woo!
Posts: 953
Re: I find this very disturbing.
God tends to get quite a bad press these days so evolution is believed as fact because it would seriously worry most people if they suddenly found themselves being held accountable to a powerful almighty looking down from on high. People don't want God in their lives, it makes no sense to them and it's easier and fashionable to not have a faith.
I mean which was the creature that at one point was stumbling around blindly before it evolved an eye. And how did that eye develop? Did it just appear or was their a creature with half an eye to start with.? A kind of prototype perhaps. Apply that same thought to all the other senses that give us so much appreciation for the nice things in life. I'd like to see evidence of this kind of development but I'm not convinced it's been found so far.
I mean which was the creature that at one point was stumbling around blindly before it evolved an eye. And how did that eye develop? Did it just appear or was their a creature with half an eye to start with.? A kind of prototype perhaps. Apply that same thought to all the other senses that give us so much appreciation for the nice things in life. I'd like to see evidence of this kind of development but I'm not convinced it's been found so far.
The eye thing works on the same principle as the fact that antibiotics are becoming less and less effective on the organisms they once devastated. If a species doesn't adapt, it dies. The members of a species with the slight advantage - an extra leg, a nascent eye, are the ones that don't get eaten and then can procreate. Most offspring are not carbon copies of their parents.
Science makes assumptions too, but they are based more on empirically confirmed facts than the Bible's leaps of faith.
Apr 7th 2008, 2:42 am
#85
Magnificently Withering
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Oakville, ON
Posts: 6,891
Re: I find this very disturbing.
I doubt many people look closely into the evidence supplied to try and prove evolution but I'd like see some fossils for the real in-between stages. I mean which was the creature that at one point was stumbling around blindly before it evolved an eye. And how did that eye develop? Did it just appear or was their a creature with half an eye to start with.? A kind of prototype perhaps. Apply that same thought to all the other senses that give us so much appreciation for the nice things in life. I'd like to see evidence of this kind of development but I'm not convinced it's been found so far. Instead we just have fossil remains of different creatures that have lived in the past.
Apr 7th 2008, 4:03 am
#86
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Sep 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,152
Re: I find this very disturbing.
Yes, the eye thing is often quoted by Creationists and ID believers as an example of "it couldn't have happened by accident," but to borrow a phrase from Bazzz, it's bollocks. You don't even need to look to the fossil record for evidence of the gradual evolutionary development of the eye. Various species of mollusc extant today show every significant evolutionary phase, from a simple photosensitive pigment cell to a complex eye with cornea, iris, lens and retina. Britannica has diagrams and names the relevant species here
However I'm never likely to be won over by someone who feels the need to belittle an alternative point of view as simply "bollocks". That, I'm afraid just lacks class.
Last edited by stepnek; Apr 7th 2008 at 4:09 am.
Apr 7th 2008, 4:15 am
#87
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,352
Re: I find this very disturbing.
it is very disturbing isn't it.... that people believe everything in the bible (as it is) now that is very mental. faith is ok but drumming that shit into kids heads is abusive if you ask me. i have a real problem with the whole "eve" thing. and many bible followers only take the bits they want to.. better not go too far.....
Apr 7th 2008, 2:08 pm
#88
Magnificently Withering
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Oakville, ON
Posts: 6,891
Re: I find this very disturbing.
The mollusc example doesn't especially convince as it just shows the type of eye each of those different creatures happened to have or had. How does that prove evolution of the eye? The limpet has a much less complex eye than does an octopus. But I'm not arguing in favour of one or the other because honestly I just don't know.
However I'm never likely to be won over by someone who feels the need to belittle an alternative point of view as simply "bollocks". That, I'm afraid just lacks class.
However I'm never likely to be won over by someone who feels the need to belittle an alternative point of view as simply "bollocks". That, I'm afraid just lacks class.
The simplest proto-eye allows a sensing of light and dark, so could help an organism decide which side of the rock it's attached to is in sunshine longer and so will have more plant life growing on it. And so on: as the developments go on through thousands of generations, each time the possessors of the more "advanced" eye are stronger/fitter/more able to proliferate. As species diverge, some evolutionary pathways (e.g. the limpet) don't develop any further. Others do, until we arrive at something like the squid, that has a highly developed, complex eye.
Incidentally, squid eyes are more highly developed than human eyes: the retina forms a double surface with blood vessels and optic nerves between the layers, so there's no "blind spot" and much better ability to see in poor light conditions.
THe "bollocks" comment, as I hoped you would realise, was not intended as an insult or to belittle your point of view. However, I maintain that one of the most oft-repeated arguments of ID proponents about the formation of the eye really doesn't hold up to scrutiny. There is plenty of objective evidence in currently extant species, never mind the fossil record, that shows the evolutionary advantage of many of the intermediate steps in the process of formation of a complex eye. If the crutch that props up the argument is knocked away, the argument collapses, no?
Conversely, I have no difficulty reconciling my view of evolutionary science - or my views on creationism - with my Christian faith (though it probably helps that that is a wishy-washy George Carey-style Anglicanism rather than an evangelical or JW viewpoint). Bible-literalists get into a whole load more trouble in terms of logical fallacy than the ID argument, IMHO.
BTW, sorry for long post - it seems I feel more strongly on this than I realised...
Jun 9th 2008, 6:53 pm
#89
Cheesey Dippin-Dunkin
Joined: Feb 2008
Location: London Outskirts
Posts: 1,161
Re: I find this very disturbing.
A thought loosly based on this subject has come to mind...and that is
In libraries, do they put the bible in the fiction or non-fiction section?
Genuine question - I don't know the answer....
In libraries, do they put the bible in the fiction or non-fiction section?
Genuine question - I don't know the answer....
Jun 9th 2008, 7:00 pm
#90
Logical & Hot Stuff
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Ontario's Armpit
Posts: 19,815
Re: I find this very disturbing.
