Canada ranks # 3 in world for # of low paying jobs-Adv Countries.
Oct 22nd 2014, 4:48 am
#136
Pea Brain
Joined: Jun 2005
Location: TBD
Posts: 6,005
Re: Canada ranks # 3 in world for # of low paying jobs-Adv Countries.
Higher paid workers can be more productive, however some just want more money for no further input. Putting up wages and getting the same output, requires higher prices or reduced costs elsewhere, which put pressure on the supply chain to reduce costs and further squeezing margins, which ultimately may lead to fewer businesses in the market place, less competition and rising prices.
What raising the minimum wage also does is to create a larger pool of unemployable workers, those who are unable to be as productive as others and consequently get left behind, particularity workers with some impairment.
What raising the minimum wage also does is to create a larger pool of unemployable workers, those who are unable to be as productive as others and consequently get left behind, particularity workers with some impairment.
I don't - see above.
Oct 22nd 2014, 4:58 am
#137
Account Closed
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 0
Re: Canada ranks # 3 in world for # of low paying jobs-Adv Countries.
I believe this is the case. If I have to pay some of my staff more than minimum wage, there are 2 options to make it affordable - put prices to the consumer up, or squeeze my suppliers (or a little of both I guess). My suppliers are unlikely to reduce their margins further, so ExKiwilass would potentially have to suck up more expensive goods and services.
I don't - see above.
I don't - see above.
People may blame Wal-Mart and other large companies, but these companies tend to pay more then min. wage overall, its the small companies who are the biggest abusers of labor it seems.
Funny how it's always the employees who have to take the hit, maybe management and owners should take a pay cut and reduce their income? Nah that will never happen, employees are worthless to companies and only management is worth anything.
Last edited by scrubbedexpat091; Oct 22nd 2014 at 5:04 am.
Oct 22nd 2014, 6:18 am
#138
Pea Brain
Joined: Jun 2005
Location: TBD
Posts: 6,005
Re: Canada ranks # 3 in world for # of low paying jobs-Adv Countries.
Maybe find a business plan that doesn't rely on min. wage? I really have no sympathy for companies of any size who try and justify paying min. wage, if a business is designed in a way to rely on low wages to survive, then maybe that business isn't viable in its current form.
People may blame Wal-Mart and other large companies, but these companies tend to pay more then min. wage overall, its the small companies who are the biggest abusers of labor it seems.
Funny how it's always the employees who have to take the hit, maybe management and owners should take a pay cut and reduce their income? Nah that will never happen, employees are worthless to companies and only management is worth anything.
People may blame Wal-Mart and other large companies, but these companies tend to pay more then min. wage overall, its the small companies who are the biggest abusers of labor it seems.
Funny how it's always the employees who have to take the hit, maybe management and owners should take a pay cut and reduce their income? Nah that will never happen, employees are worthless to companies and only management is worth anything.
It's not the employees that take the hit. I actually took no wage this summer, and have no health benefits or pension plan. My staff always got paid on time, and with tips made several $ more than min wage. They had fringe benefits provided such as weekly trips out to the lake to use my boat for skiing and relaxing. Many seasonal businesses operate on tiny margins during the quieter times - all I can do is value my staff and stay open to provide them some rather than no income. Frankly it'd be easier to close for longer periods during the shoulder seasons, but then people would be on EI, and that's no better, is it?
It's hardly an abuse of labour - if staff are unhappy with pay and conditions, they're not beholden to work for me. The majority return season after season.
Last edited by R I C H; Oct 22nd 2014 at 6:22 am.
Oct 22nd 2014, 4:33 pm
#141
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 12,830
Re: Canada ranks # 3 in world for # of low paying jobs-Adv Countries.
Maybe find a business plan that doesn't rely on min. wage? I really have no sympathy for companies of any size who try and justify paying min. wage, if a business is designed in a way to rely on low wages to survive, then maybe that business isn't viable in its current form.
People may blame Wal-Mart and other large companies, but these companies tend to pay more then min. wage overall, its the small companies who are the biggest abusers of labor it seems.
Funny how it's always the employees who have to take the hit, maybe management and owners should take a pay cut and reduce their income? Nah that will never happen, employees are worthless to companies and only management is worth anything.
People may blame Wal-Mart and other large companies, but these companies tend to pay more then min. wage overall, its the small companies who are the biggest abusers of labor it seems.
Funny how it's always the employees who have to take the hit, maybe management and owners should take a pay cut and reduce their income? Nah that will never happen, employees are worthless to companies and only management is worth anything.
It is the owners who take the hit when things go south, customers who go bust and don't pay, market collapses or crops lost, employees still get a pay cheque. If the business goes tits up, the owners lose their investment, livelihood and maybe their home.
Management has to make the business work, surely market forces should take care of wages, if workers won't work for the sums offered, the employer has to pay more or try and find other employees, maybe at the detriment of their business.
Many owners take pay cuts, even earn nothing at all in the early years of business. Quite often small business owners earn less than their employees. If larger companies did not pay market remuneration, they would not attract the calibre of employee needed to run their business. They would go elsewhere where they can get the remuneration.
Without those at the top, there would be nobody at the bottom.
Employer/Employee relationship is a transaction, the employer offers a sum of money for work they want done and in the return someone (the employee) agrees to come and undertake the task.
If prices were legislated too, then the gap between income and expenses would remain constant. We could all sit outside the mall and protest until they bring prices down to a more 'affordable' price.
Some complain about the prices of dairy in Canada, some farm goods have legislated quota that controls who can produce, how much, which impact pricing. This is government controlling pricing.
The cost of living is the price it is because of the costs of doing business, of which payroll is the largest part. As payroll goes up prices will follow and be marked up. The more transactions in the chain the more impact payroll costs in the chain will have on the selling price. There are plenty who say they would pay more for goods to increase minimum wage, until it comes to parting with the cash and often these same people then complain about the price of rising goods, management are greedy and wages should go up to cover rising cost of living, and so we go on.
Last edited by Aviator; Oct 22nd 2014 at 4:36 pm.
Oct 22nd 2014, 4:45 pm
#142
Account Closed
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 0
Re: Canada ranks # 3 in world for # of low paying jobs-Adv Countries.
Consumerism and the demand for cheaper goods, which is why in part, along with high labour costs, manufacturing has moved offshore.
It is the owners who take the hit when things go south, customers who go bust and don't pay, market collapses or crops lost, employees still get a pay cheque. If the business goes tits up, the owners lose their investment, livelihood and maybe their home.
Management has to make the business work, surely market forces should take care of wages, if workers won't work for the sums offered, the employer has to pay more or try and find other employees, maybe at the detriment of their business.
Many owners take pay cuts, even earn nothing at all in the early years of business. Quite often small business owners earn less than their employees. If larger companies did not pay market remuneration, they would not attract the calibre of employee needed to run their business. They would go elsewhere where they can get the remuneration.
Without those at the top, there would be nobody at the bottom.
Employer/Employee relationship is a transaction, the employer offers a sum of money for work they want done and in the return someone (the employee) agrees to come and undertake the task.
If prices were legislated too, then the gap between income and expenses would remain constant. We could all sit outside the mall and protest until they bring prices down to a more 'affordable' price.
Some complain about the prices of dairy in Canada, some farm goods have legislated quota that controls who can produce, how much, which impact pricing. This is government controlling pricing.
The cost of living is the price it is because of the costs of doing business, of which payroll is the largest part. As payroll goes up prices will follow and be marked up. The more transactions in the chain the more impact payroll costs in the chain will have on the selling price. There are plenty who say they would pay more for goods to increase minimum wage, until it comes to parting with the cash and often these same people then complain about the price of rising goods, management are greedy and wages should go up to cover rising cost of living, and so we go on.
It is the owners who take the hit when things go south, customers who go bust and don't pay, market collapses or crops lost, employees still get a pay cheque. If the business goes tits up, the owners lose their investment, livelihood and maybe their home.
Management has to make the business work, surely market forces should take care of wages, if workers won't work for the sums offered, the employer has to pay more or try and find other employees, maybe at the detriment of their business.
Many owners take pay cuts, even earn nothing at all in the early years of business. Quite often small business owners earn less than their employees. If larger companies did not pay market remuneration, they would not attract the calibre of employee needed to run their business. They would go elsewhere where they can get the remuneration.
Without those at the top, there would be nobody at the bottom.
Employer/Employee relationship is a transaction, the employer offers a sum of money for work they want done and in the return someone (the employee) agrees to come and undertake the task.
If prices were legislated too, then the gap between income and expenses would remain constant. We could all sit outside the mall and protest until they bring prices down to a more 'affordable' price.
Some complain about the prices of dairy in Canada, some farm goods have legislated quota that controls who can produce, how much, which impact pricing. This is government controlling pricing.
The cost of living is the price it is because of the costs of doing business, of which payroll is the largest part. As payroll goes up prices will follow and be marked up. The more transactions in the chain the more impact payroll costs in the chain will have on the selling price. There are plenty who say they would pay more for goods to increase minimum wage, until it comes to parting with the cash and often these same people then complain about the price of rising goods, management are greedy and wages should go up to cover rising cost of living, and so we go on.
We are never going to agree, and it's not worth debating. But I am not going to feel sorry for a company who cries poor because they can't afford to pay a reasonable wage for their employees, if a company is set up to rely on cheap labor for success, then in my opinion it's not a viable company to begin with.
Funny how other countries seem to do just fine with a high min. wage, and overall provide for a better quality of life.
Live on min. wage for a month and see just how hard it is, and then maybe you will understand why workers are frustrated.
Oct 22nd 2014, 5:04 pm
#143
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 12,830
Re: Canada ranks # 3 in world for # of low paying jobs-Adv Countries.
Like Asian countries that produce most of the western worlds consumer goods? The western worlds economies rely on low cost labour to support the consumerist society.
Oct 22nd 2014, 5:25 pm
#144
Muskoka, Ontario
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,045
Re: Canada ranks # 3 in world for # of low paying jobs-Adv Countries.
Any yet the UK, Belgium, Germany, Ireland, New Zealand, France and Australia all manage an economy with a significant raise in the minimum wage than Canada's ..... Let's not race to the bottom with Russia and China, clearly the above countries show it is possible to pay people more and keep economies afloat.
Oct 22nd 2014, 5:40 pm
#145
Pea Brain
Joined: Jun 2005
Location: TBD
Posts: 6,005
Re: Canada ranks # 3 in world for # of low paying jobs-Adv Countries.
Any yet the UK, Belgium, Germany, Ireland, New Zealand, France and Australia all manage an economy with a significant raise in the minimum wage than Canada's ..... Let's not race to the bottom with Russia and China, clearly the above countries show it is possible to pay people more and keep economies afloat.
Going back to Jsmith's point about living on minimum wage for a month, here's the reality I see: my staff work hard, and can earn c$2k take home per month. Accommodation costs them $550 p/mth (all inclusive of bills except TV and internet). That's just over 25% of their earnings. They can walk to work, so commuting costs are minimal (though many own a car). They're left with $350 p/wk to feed and entertain themselves. Given the amount of hangovers I witness, I don't think they struggle with the entertainment aspect. They get food at cost at my business, so 2 meals per day are inexpensive. Many stay and work multiple seasons. It doesn't seem like a disadvantaged or borderline lifestyle to me, especially when they're skiing, boating, mountain biking or golfing in their spare time.
Oct 22nd 2014, 5:55 pm
#146
Muskoka, Ontario
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,045
Re: Canada ranks # 3 in world for # of low paying jobs-Adv Countries.
Of course it's possible to pay more, as long as the consumer can meet the cost.
Going back to Jsmith's point about living on minimum wage for a month, here's the reality I see: my staff work hard, and can earn c$2k take home per month. Accommodation costs them $550 p/mth (all inclusive of bills except TV and internet). That's just over 25% of their earnings. They can walk to work, so commuting costs are minimal (though many own a car). They're left with $350 p/wk to feed and entertain themselves. Given the amount of hangovers I witness, I don't think they struggle with the entertainment aspect. They get food at cost at my business, so 2 meals per day are inexpensive. Many stay and work multiple seasons. It doesn't seem like a disadvantaged or borderline lifestyle to me, especially when they're skiing, boating, mountain biking or golfing in their spare time.
Going back to Jsmith's point about living on minimum wage for a month, here's the reality I see: my staff work hard, and can earn c$2k take home per month. Accommodation costs them $550 p/mth (all inclusive of bills except TV and internet). That's just over 25% of their earnings. They can walk to work, so commuting costs are minimal (though many own a car). They're left with $350 p/wk to feed and entertain themselves. Given the amount of hangovers I witness, I don't think they struggle with the entertainment aspect. They get food at cost at my business, so 2 meals per day are inexpensive. Many stay and work multiple seasons. It doesn't seem like a disadvantaged or borderline lifestyle to me, especially when they're skiing, boating, mountain biking or golfing in their spare time.
Oct 22nd 2014, 6:38 pm
#147
limey party pooper
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,982
Re: Canada ranks # 3 in world for # of low paying jobs-Adv Countries.
Of course it's possible to pay more, as long as the consumer can meet the cost.
Going back to Jsmith's point about living on minimum wage for a month, here's the reality I see: my staff work hard, and can earn c$2k take home per month. Accommodation costs them $550 p/mth (all inclusive of bills except TV and internet). That's just over 25% of their earnings. They can walk to work, so commuting costs are minimal (though many own a car). They're left with $350 p/wk to feed and entertain themselves. Given the amount of hangovers I witness, I don't think they struggle with the entertainment aspect. They get food at cost at my business, so 2 meals per day are inexpensive. Many stay and work multiple seasons. It doesn't seem like a disadvantaged or borderline lifestyle to me, especially when they're skiing, boating, mountain biking or golfing in their spare time.
Going back to Jsmith's point about living on minimum wage for a month, here's the reality I see: my staff work hard, and can earn c$2k take home per month. Accommodation costs them $550 p/mth (all inclusive of bills except TV and internet). That's just over 25% of their earnings. They can walk to work, so commuting costs are minimal (though many own a car). They're left with $350 p/wk to feed and entertain themselves. Given the amount of hangovers I witness, I don't think they struggle with the entertainment aspect. They get food at cost at my business, so 2 meals per day are inexpensive. Many stay and work multiple seasons. It doesn't seem like a disadvantaged or borderline lifestyle to me, especially when they're skiing, boating, mountain biking or golfing in their spare time.
What about the people sorting through the recycling waste who wear thick PPE and work in huge warehouses that are either too hot or too cold.? Or assembly line work where the chemicals used burn through your apron and your wrists ache after just a few days? Just a coupl of the jobs my husband has done while trying to find a job in his trade.
Oct 22nd 2014, 6:46 pm
#148
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 12,830
Re: Canada ranks # 3 in world for # of low paying jobs-Adv Countries.
The man's personal circumstances are not relevant to the wage paid by the employer, but may be relevant to what income he wants to earn to afford a specific lifestyle.
An individuals earning capacity depends on many factors including their education and qualifications, geographic location, performance abilities and chosen industry. Some industries pay more than others, some employees do the same job far better than others. Some industries pay by the piece, so employees that perform well do very well, others get left behind because they are unproductive. If it costs more to produce a product than the market will tolerate, then the company runs at a loss, lays off employees or shuts down.
All well and good for some to not have sympathy for a business that relies on low paid workers, however the reality is, the consumer is driving the market and keeping wages down by demanding lower cost services and merchandise. A business can only sell goods at a price the market will tolerate or against competition, in the western world this is often offshore competition driven by very low production costs.
I seriously doubt consumers will accept 20% price rises to pay higher wages, even those who say they will, when it comes to dipping their hand in their pocket it is a different story.
An individuals earning capacity depends on many factors including their education and qualifications, geographic location, performance abilities and chosen industry. Some industries pay more than others, some employees do the same job far better than others. Some industries pay by the piece, so employees that perform well do very well, others get left behind because they are unproductive. If it costs more to produce a product than the market will tolerate, then the company runs at a loss, lays off employees or shuts down.
All well and good for some to not have sympathy for a business that relies on low paid workers, however the reality is, the consumer is driving the market and keeping wages down by demanding lower cost services and merchandise. A business can only sell goods at a price the market will tolerate or against competition, in the western world this is often offshore competition driven by very low production costs.
I seriously doubt consumers will accept 20% price rises to pay higher wages, even those who say they will, when it comes to dipping their hand in their pocket it is a different story.
Oct 22nd 2014, 7:52 pm
#149
Muskoka, Ontario
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,045
Re: Canada ranks # 3 in world for # of low paying jobs-Adv Countries.
The man's personal circumstances are not relevant to the wage paid by the employer, but may be relevant to what income he wants to earn to afford a specific lifestyle.
An individuals earning capacity depends on many factors including their education and qualifications, geographic location, performance abilities and chosen industry. Some industries pay more than others, some employees do the same job far better than others. Some industries pay by the piece, so employees that perform well do very well, others get left behind because they are unproductive. If it costs more to produce a product than the market will tolerate, then the company runs at a loss, lays off employees or shuts down.
All well and good for some to not have sympathy for a business that relies on low paid workers, however the reality is, the consumer is driving the market and keeping wages down by demanding lower cost services and merchandise. A business can only sell goods at a price the market will tolerate or against competition, in the western world this is often offshore competition driven by very low production costs.
I seriously doubt consumers will accept 20% price rises to pay higher wages, even those who say they will, when it comes to dipping their hand in their pocket it is a different story.
An individuals earning capacity depends on many factors including their education and qualifications, geographic location, performance abilities and chosen industry. Some industries pay more than others, some employees do the same job far better than others. Some industries pay by the piece, so employees that perform well do very well, others get left behind because they are unproductive. If it costs more to produce a product than the market will tolerate, then the company runs at a loss, lays off employees or shuts down.
All well and good for some to not have sympathy for a business that relies on low paid workers, however the reality is, the consumer is driving the market and keeping wages down by demanding lower cost services and merchandise. A business can only sell goods at a price the market will tolerate or against competition, in the western world this is often offshore competition driven by very low production costs.
I seriously doubt consumers will accept 20% price rises to pay higher wages, even those who say they will, when it comes to dipping their hand in their pocket it is a different story.
Oct 22nd 2014, 8:13 pm
#150
Pea Brain
Joined: Jun 2005
Location: TBD
Posts: 6,005
Re: Canada ranks # 3 in world for # of low paying jobs-Adv Countries.
Clearly you're talking about a young person living a certain lifestyle, maybe they sacrifice food for booze? Maybe their parents help them out a lot. Maybe they are in a lot of debt... You're making an assumption based on appearance. You wouldn't advocate minimum wage for a man looking after a family?
Supporting a family on a single minimum wage is not what I was describing or advocating either. I am merely illustrating the reality that an individual can live a reasonable lifestyle on minimum wage if they so choose. It's not an extravagant or high rolling lifestyle, but it's achievable.