Abduction in the Algarve
 

Given the extent of news in the UK, and some other countries I really find it quite strange that nobody has started a thread about that 3 year old girl's abduction from the holiday resort in Portugal. I see there are two separate threads on the Ozzy forum, one of them spanning 12 pages, but not a stitch here. Peculiar considering the number of young mothers who post on this forum. So I'm going to do it. The general feeling is that the parents are primarily to blame, and the perpetrator obviously, here's a post and an answer which pretty much sums up the general way the thread has been going. Just to start you off..

<<<If Denise Bulger hadn't let go of James hand. If Holly and Jessicas parents hadn't let them play out. The list could go on. Yes I know there is a higher degree of irresponsibility on the parents, as I've said I'm not condoning it, but it does appear that these people were determined and had targeted Maddy. Parents on holiday with friends, 2 toddlers to mind + a 3 year old, plenty of distractions, the sicko(s) must have been biding their time. Plus a person(s) had been seen tampering with the shutters on other apartments, so what's to say they wouldn't have taken her whilst the parents slept.

What I'm really trying to get across is that we can all tut and shake our heads, but shouldn't we rather be outraged at the lack of action from the police and be calling for the EU to regulate how abductions are handled.

Shouldn't we be outraged that we have these sicko's in our society who are allowed to live freely and be calling for our childrens right to safety.

I'm in no way saying that what has been said on here is wrong, just trying to change the focus.>>>

Answer
<<<I'm sorry but the basic fact that a child can be abducted in a split second is the biggest reason that you don't leave your three babies locked in an apartment whilst you swan out with your mates for a meal (allegedly every night of the holiday).

Lack of action by the police? says who? Please don't assume that what the papers say is fact, what the police do is their job, they don't feel the need to publicise every move.

I would be interested to know quite how any country is supposed to regulate abductions Also perhaps you could tell me how we are supposed to know who the "sickos" are so we can keep them locked up. I would assume they would have to do something sick first. Whatever your feelings on the case, the parents have stuffed up parenting big time and very sadly the child has gone. They will never forgive themselves and neither will the general public. It makes no difference how many "there but for the grace of god" stories there are, their lives have gone pair shaped and you can't absolve the parents from the blame.>>>

Re: Abduction in the Algarve
 

I agree with all of the above - both opinions !

The parents will NEVER come to terms with what has happened and their part in this situation, whatever the outcome - and that will suffice as their punishment ...

And yes, there are 'sickos' all over the world - many wandering freely as no-one has any idea who they are - most are usually pretty clever and manipulative and appear so very ordinary ... there's nothing to say that this poor child would not have been taken in some other way, at some other time, if she really was targeted and the person responsible was so determined ... but we can all justify our sanctimonious comments that if the parents had not gone out for a meal - checking regularly or not - this probably would not have happened ...

My thoughts are primarily with the child - the 'better' outcome of several awful scenarios floating around in my mind, is that she was 'simply' taken by someone who wanted to bring her up as their own .... I really don't want to dwell on any of the others ...

Re: Abduction in the Algarve
 

I have become obsessed with this story. I have a 3 year old so it is very close to home.

Jamie Bulger was murdered when my oldest was the same age. It made me buy a wrist strap and become paranoid about watching him in shops. It is easy for us to condemn. I do wonder what the publics opinion would have been to a single mum leaving 3 toddlers and being "nearby "in a bar.

I do think they should have known better, they will now pay the price for the rest of their lives. Even if she is found I personally don't think they will ever recover.

I just hope she has been taken to be idolised and not abused. She will never ever replace the life and lifestyle she has been wrenched from . The parents will spend every waking moment looking at children the same age.

They should be relieved they did not loose all 3 of their children.

Re: Abduction in the Algarve
 

Hi Steve,

Some interesting things to think about. This story raises the spectre of worry that must haunt all parents from time to time. It also raises questions about the actions of the police and the media, and the fear of crime.

Are the parents to blame? How often do parents believe that they have taken an acceptable risk by leaving their children alone? I guess every parent (to some degree or another) has taken a calculated risk. Perhaps leaving children asleep, locked indoors was felt to be enough? Maybe it's not for me to say. I like to think I might have done something different - or would I?
How often do we suppose that a moments inattention comes to nothing. But what do we feel when letting go of a child's hand, or being distracted for a moment only to find that an innocent and trusting child has gone missing?

Some years ago, whilst serving as a police officer, I was in charge of a search for a 3-year old boy who had gone missing whilst with his father and 10-year old sister.
All three had been on a boat when the father had agreed that the two children could walk the 50 metres to a local sweet shop. The father had ensured they were safely off the boat and continued to work on board. He was only alerted to the absence of the boy when his daughter said that she couldn't find her brother.
I became involved and an extensive search took place. There was huge local support - many members of the public were involved (it was a Bank Holiday) without us finding the boy.
In the meantime, we had to consider the possibility (however unlikely) that the child had fallen into the water. Eventually, the boy was found dead - under the boat. This was a desperately sad case.
Subsequently it was determined that he had most likely slipped between the boat and the mooring while his sister was not looking and while his father had believed them to be safely on shore.
Needless to say, the father was extremely upset and blamed himself. However, did he reasonably do all that he thought was necessary? After all, the boy and his sister were familiar with the location and had vistied the shop many times before.

I guess what I am trying to say is that we all take risks, but I am not trying to condone negligence. We all make judgements that are felt to be 'reasonable' at the time and have to live with the consequences.

So what about the media and the fear of crime? Let's not forget that much of what we 'know' is often filtered, restricted by law and presented to suit the particular agenda of some sections of the media. That's not to say this isn't an horrific situation for the child and the parents but we do need to understand that we cannot possibly know all the facts.

Let's also not be carried away on a tide of moral panic about "weirdos" and "perverts". The reality is that most child sex offenders (if that is what this case is about) rely on knowing and creating a bond of trust with their victims (recent reports regarding the Church of England are a case in point). This 'grooming' takes place over a long period and, sadly, often takes place within what many regard as 'safe' relationships. The media portrayal of predatory offenders is frequently far from reality and does help sustain the discourse of "it's not safe to let your child out these days".

This is a tragic case. There will be debate and dissection of the police response. There will be a very public critique of the role of the parents. However, the fact that this has attracted so much attention also highlights the relative rarity of the event. The fear of crime is often disproportionately higher than the reality.

Mine is only one view. I know others will will have stronger and contrary views. What I like and support about this forum is the opportunity to air ones views and see them challenged and/or supported.

Over to you....

Simon:cool:

Re: Abduction in the Algarve
 

I too have a three year old and it makes me feel sick to think of what could be happening to Maddy. I, personally would not leave my children asleep in an apartment whilst i left to have dinner and i can't understand the parents wanting to do so. What if the child woke up and couldn't find you, or managed to open the door/window? It would break my heart to know that my child had been scared, crying and alone whilst i had been out enjoying myself. My 6 year old woke up the other evening and couldn't find us (we were out in the garden doing some much needed weeding), and he screamed and cried for us - was extremely upset to think that he'd been left by himself.

I am almost paranoid about my children's safety and can almost feel my heart palpitating if i let myself think about what could happen when they're at school or the childminders. I am also paranoid about the youngest holding my hand when we're out - both of my boys have been very good about it (Bailey is now allowed to walk on his own in front of me and feels very grown up doing so!). I again, have heart palpitations when i see the boys go out with their dad not holding hands etc, he's much more relaxed about it than me (a much needed balance between us maybe). Neurotic Mother i hear you say - perhaps but i'd rather be a neurotic mother of two safe children than a distraught mother of one.

I hope and pray that they find Madeleine safe and well.

Re: Abduction in the Algarve
 

Hi,
I to find it hard to believe that in this day and age two obviously intelligent people could believe that leaving three toddlers in a hotel apartment alone, however close they were, was a sensible and safe decision. I do hope with all my heart that the little girl is found safe and well, I have two daughters of my own and would hate to be in the same position as that family are now.

The point I would like to make is this, as long as these sicko's are treated with compassion by the authorities and given a slap on the wrist or a few years jail time for targetting children, then these incidents will always arise.

If it would mean we were rid of these people (& terrorists & murderers) I would gladly vote to bring back the death sentence, thus easing the overcrowding in our 4 star hotels, sorry, maximum & high security prisons.

Steven

Re: Abduction in the Algarve
 

Simon, if this were my post I'd cut and paste it into the Australian thread of the same subject, here ---

http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=448533

I'd do it but it's your post.

Is this news in Canada I wonder?

Re: Abduction in the Algarve
 

Thanks Steve,

Pasted as suggested. I checked CBC and CNews but they don't seem to be covering it at the moment.

Simon:cool:

Re: Abduction in the Algarve
 

I did se this thread in the europe forum

http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=447317

They have been discussing it there since last week obviously.

I agree that this is a terrible thing and one cannot imagine what the parents are going through now or in the future. Of course everyone's hearts are with them at this time.

I am a mum of a 12 and 11 year old and yes occasionally I nip out to the shop if I run out of something - so guess that I am saying that it is ok for you to leave your children.

BUT and here is where someone will call me two faced - under no circumstances would i leave my children to sleep in a hotel room anywhere even at their current ages. In the past on family holidays once bedtime has come we have taken drinks up into the room and either sat and watched the TV or sat out on our balcony whilst the children sleep after all when you go on a family holiday you stay with your family.

The only way I can rationalise the situation in Portugal is that the parents had a "moment of madness" in leaving those children asleep and dropped their guard for once.

It does however prove as someone has said prior that this happens all over the world and you should be constantly aware of this wherever you are.

The special police who deal with paedophiles I think has now been involved to try and assist in this somehow. I have also heard that maybe the child has been stolen to order.

If this is the case and the child has been removed from Portugal to another EU state or she has been stolen by a non resident of Portugal surely this warrants some kind of investigation by the top knobs of the EU state to put stronger controls at the borders between each state.

If this is some kind of paedophile network then surely something has gone wrong with the Sex offenders register and therefore needs intervention from the government etc.

Off soap box now - and the BB thoughts are with the family concerned.

Gaynor
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Re: Abduction in the Algarve
 

I think everyone can have a "moment of madness", but the papers ( I know they can be wrong and need to be taken with a pinch of salt) have said it was happening all holiday. I think that makes it worse. It was playing with danger and lady luck from day one.:unsure:

I also didn't realise they were all IVF babies..

I wish I could stop thinking about what Maddy maybe going through, I am usually a strong person but it is driving me crazy, god knows how the parents are functioning
</IMG>

Re: Abduction in the Algarve
 

When my children, twin boys and a girl, were young we went abroad on holiday but never left them on their own at night.
This wasn't through fear of abduction (it's a few years ago!) but because any one of them might have woken up from a bad dream, been sick, choked, or even just wanted the toilet.
All three would have been disturbed and I dread to think of the scene when we had returned!
They could have gone on "walk about" in the apartment, and heaven knows what they could have got up to!
Checking every "half hour" is no use - they could wake up the minute you have gone and there would be 29 minutes of chaos!

I hope Maddy is found safe and well but I believe the criticism of her parents is justifiable.

:frown: :ohmy: :frown:

Re: Abduction in the Algarve
 

I do wonder if both parents had no problem with leaving the children or if one convinced the other "it will be ok" .

If that's the case it will more than likely wreck the marriage. One will always blame the other.

A lot of these cases end up with the family separating.

I honestly think if this was my child I would have to drugged up to the eyeballs and woken up when Maddy returned. If she didn't return then keep me asleep.

I know she has other children and carries on for them but I don't think I could do it. 5 peoples lives wrecked through ignorance (not including extended family)
:(

Kerry

Re: Abduction in the Algarve
 

I did not realise that they had been leaving them all holiday. From my experience of people who have had IVF babies - those babies are extra precious and you are very protective of them so..........
If the above was a scenario you just would not put your kids at that risk.
This is the sorry truth - imagine what would happen if this was the scenario. But I do have to admit the parents do seem incredibly strong and controlled in front of the camera - don't know if I would be that strong.

David Beckham has just done an appeal in Spain just in case they have taken her over the border in this wonderful EU state of ours.

Also a lady who lives near the hotel where she was snatched from has told reporters that she reported to the police a blonde lady acting suspiciously on the night she went missing - the police didn't follow it up and weren't interested. Then the Potugese police ad the cheek yesterday to ask the UK police to keep out of it as it was not their busines.

Explain that one !!

Gaynor
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Re: Abduction in the Algarve
 

I have just watched it again on the news.

They also had Ben Needhams mum on there, I am so choked.

It makes me want to get everybody I care about, lock them in a room and never leave to keep them safe......

Crazy I know

Re: Abduction in the Algarve
 

I am constantly thinking of this poor litle girl and her poor poor parents. Its very tragic and it does seem she was taken to order and that the snatchers woudl therefore have got their prey whatever (it might have been a different little girl) . Whatever the outcome the parents will always live to regret their choices that night and I feel very sorry for them on that - the grief must be immense.

Would I have done what they did? I think 'no way'. BUT I am realistic enough to realise that there is no single right or wrong way, and their way was a way that was obviously normal and practice in the circles they move in. We have looked at that type of holiday before and have never even considered taking it further because of leaving the children at night, but I had never worried about abduction- more about fire, other possibilities etc. Actually we don't do package holidays as I am concerned about transport for young children. I want my young children transported , strapped properly for their age on an age appropriate seat as young ones become ballistic missiles very easily, even just with a sudden stop. This isn't the case on package coached holidays and so these aren't an option for us. Clearly most people don't think the way we do about this else there wouldn't be a market for package holidays for young kids, and there is a huge market. People seem to take more risks than they would at home on holiday. In other words on this transport issue my thinking deviates from the cultural norm and I think that culturally the level of acceptability of an action is important. I wouldn't condemn people for making different choices (I think on many parenting issues there aren't rights and wrongs and there are lots of grey issues) and I think people are being mean spirited if they feel anything other than sympathy for these poor parents and the poor little girl. No-one would wish that on anyone.

In this case their way has proved tragically wrong and they are paying the ultimate price- but clearly there are many parents who do operate like this (according to the british media) and so in certain sections of society this is culturally the norm. I have seen on a forum I go to sometimes people saying they would do exactly the same next week as the risks haven't changed and are still very small , and I can understand that attitude. As a parent, however, I am maybe unable to think logically the whole time, risks may be small, but whether those risks are acceptable (and I mean risks of any kind of safety) or not is more difficult to say. I do things with my 4 year old that some parents I know would never do, in terms of risk (eg let him put on oven gloves and open oven door), and they do things I would never do (eg sit their 1 yr old on their lap on a coach transfer).

Its all complicated and I think 'never kick someone whilst they are down' is maybe a good philosophy to take here, and on this count I hand it to the British press who have done really well on this count

Gryphea