Republic Day

Old Feb 10th 2019, 8:22 pm
  #61  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by EMR
Still has 21 % below the poverty level, how does that compare to Kerala. ..?

WE spent an I getting night watching the election forcasts last December for the state elections which proved to be correct with the BJP looking seats.

The national elections are going to be even more interesting, .
21% I would have thought the figure higher, considering forest dwellers, basic fishermen, farmers with just patch of land etc.

I don't know how that compares with Kerala but the infrastructure in Karnataka is generally better.
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Old Feb 10th 2019, 8:48 pm
  #62  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by Bipat
21% I would have thought the figure higher, considering forest dwellers, basic fishermen, farmers with just patch of land etc.

I don't know how that compares with Kerala but the infrastructure in Karnataka is generally better.
Still a poorer state with more below the poverty level.
So much for your views regarding the ills of a socialist state government..
Remember that is the figure India sets, one that has been discussed at great length before..
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Old Feb 10th 2019, 9:16 pm
  #63  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by EMR
Still a poorer state with more below the poverty level.
So much for your views regarding the ills of a socialist state government..
Remember that is the figure India sets, one that has been discussed at great length before..
The point is EMR, Karnataka, a large State is improving in general infrastructure etc. and income, while Kerala is deteriorating.
Kerala government is the LDF--Left Democratic Front - a coalition of 2 communist parties and small parties.
Karnataka Congress Coalition at the present time. Has mostly been Congress.





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Old Feb 10th 2019, 9:30 pm
  #64  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by Bipat
The point is EMR, Karnataka, a large State is improving in general infrastructure etc. and income, while Kerala is deteriorating.
Kerala government is the LDF--Left Democratic Front - a coalition of 2 communist parties and small parties.
Karnataka Congress Coalition at the present time. Has mostly been Congress.
The point is that whatever the state government the people's of kerala using India's level of poverty standard are better of than at least ten of the other states.
I know facts are not your thing but that is a fact...
So Kerala left wing government has been better for its people's than states with congress and BJP government's..
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Old Feb 10th 2019, 10:06 pm
  #65  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by EMR
The point is that whatever the state government the people's of kerala using India's level of poverty standard are better of than at least ten of the other states.
I know facts are not your thing but that is a fact...
So Kerala left wing government has been better for its people's than states with congress and BJP government's..
Be accurate Communist Coalition in Kerala.
EMR your posts above illustrate your simplistic view of reality which you call "facts".
Kerala had many advantages, it should be stable or improving not deteriorating.

How do you explain West Bengal? Communist until recently.

Just for interest why are you so concerned ?Are you going to migrate there?
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Old Feb 10th 2019, 11:07 pm
  #66  
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Default Re: Republic Day


India's present GDP per capita in international dollars is approximately $8500, with a GDP (intl dollars) of nearly $11 trillion in 2018 . For essentially 150 years up to the end of British rule, per capita incomes growth was 0%. British per capita incomes rose approximately 8x during the same period, with population growing from 10 million to 50 million.

British rule is the one thing that makes Nehru's socialism look good . On that chart, the period, despite being known as one of economic stagnation (which it was in relative terms), effectively tripled per-capita income upto 1990. Very poor by world standards, but vastly superior to the 0% for 150 years prior . Up to the present day, India has of course quintupled the per-capita income from the 1990 figure.

What makes the numbers during British rule even worse, is that the numbers above are PER CAPITA. Between the beginning of the 19th century and mid 20th, India registered 0.5% growth in population per year, from ~200 million in 1800 to 350 million in 1950. It tripled the 1950 figure to 930 million in 1990, and YET managed to triple per capita income, which for the century and half prior, had been stagnant at 0% despite effectively 0% population growth.
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Old Feb 10th 2019, 11:15 pm
  #67  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by sun_burn

India's present GDP per capita in international dollars is approximately $8500, with a GDP (intl dollars) of nearly $11 trillion in 2018 . For essentially 150 years up to the end of British rule, per capita incomes growth was 0%. British per capita incomes rose approximately 8x during the same period, with population growing from 10 million to 50 million.

British rule is the one thing that makes Nehru's socialism look good . On that chart, the period, despite being known as one of economic stagnation (which it was in relative terms), effectively tripled per-capita income upto 1990. Very poor by world standards, but vastly superior to the 0% for 150 years prior . Up to the present day, India has of course quintupled the per-capita income from the 1990 figure.

What makes the numbers during British rule even worse, is that the numbers above are PER CAPITA. Between the beginning of the 19th century and mid 20th, India registered 0.5% growth in population per year, from ~200 million in 1800 to 350 million in 1950. It tripled the 1950 figure to 930 million in 1990, and YET managed to triple per capita income, which for the century and half prior, had been stagnant at 0% despite effectively 0% population growth.

How about posting the same charts for ALL GDP growth for all the major economies since 1947,.

As Bipat keeps reminding us there is a much bigger world outside than that of our home countries..

British rule 1914 18 global war
1929 - 1937 global recession
1939 - 1945 global war.

OF course only mist uniformed would ignore the effects off these three major global events that affected every economy in the world.
E.G. UK GDP grew 400% in the period 1951 to 2017.
That would look not that different on your chart.

Last edited by EMR; Feb 10th 2019 at 11:26 pm.
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Old Feb 10th 2019, 11:21 pm
  #68  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by Bipat
Be accurate Communist Coalition in Kerala.
EMR your posts above illustrate your simplistic view of reality which you call "facts".
Kerala had many advantages, it should be stable or improving not deteriorating.

How do you explain West Bengal? Communist until recently.

Just for interest why are you so concerned ?Are you going to migrate there?
Not an unexpected post from you, diversion , your usual tactics.
Facts really f upset you don,t they.
West Bengal is also not one if India's poorest states.,, socilalisr governenets csn,,t be all that bad...
What advantages does Kerala have , explain please..
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Old Feb 10th 2019, 11:40 pm
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Default Re: Republic Day

Period: ~1800 to ~1950

India
Population growth: 200 million to 350 million (0.4% per year) over 150 years
GDP per capita growth: 0% (~$500 to ~$530) over 150 years
Aggregate growth in GDP: 75% over 150 years (same as population growth, 0% per capita gains)

UK
Population growth: 10 million to 50 million (500%) over 150 years
GDP per capita growth: 800% over 150 years
Aggregate growth in GDP: 4000% over 150 years

Independent India

~1950-2018
Population growth: ~350m to ~1250m (360%) over ~70 years)
Per capita income growth: $500 to $9000: 1800% over 70 years
Aggregate growth in GDP: 6400% over 70 years (~$175 billion to ~$11500 billion)

Post liberalization India

1990-2018
India population growth: 930m-1250m (34% over 30 years)
GDP per capita growth: $1500 to $9000 (600% over 30 years)
Aggregate growth in GDP: 800% in 30 years.

India overtook UK in PPP GDP before the beginning of economic liberalization - even stagnation of the Nehru era offered sufficiently fast GDP growth to undo that century of humiliation.

Last edited by sun_burn; Feb 10th 2019 at 11:43 pm.
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Old Feb 11th 2019, 2:58 am
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by sun_burn
Period: ~1800 to ~1950

India
Population growth: 200 million to 350 million (0.4% per year) over 150 years
GDP per capita growth: 0% (~$500 to ~$530) over 150 years
Aggregate growth in GDP: 75% over 150 years (same as population growth, 0% per capita gains)

UK
Population growth: 10 million to 50 million (500%) over 150 years
GDP per capita growth: 800% over 150 years
Aggregate growth in GDP: 4000% over 150 years

Independent India

~1950-2018
Population growth: ~350m to ~1250m (360%) over ~70 years)
Per capita income growth: $500 to $9000: 1800% over 70 years
Aggregate growth in GDP: 6400% over 70 years (~$175 billion to ~$11500 billion)

Post liberalization India

1990-2018
India population growth: 930m-1250m (34% over 30 years)
GDP per capita growth: $1500 to $9000 (600% over 30 years)
Aggregate growth in GDP: 800% in 30 years.

India overtook UK in PPP GDP before the beginning of economic liberalization - even stagnation of the Nehru era offered sufficiently fast GDP growth to undo that century of humiliation.
Sir, I think comparing the UK with India over time on the bases you’ve used is a misleading exercise. The politics of both places have changed so much over this period, with Britain shifting from mercantilist to capitalist to socialist. Britain, like a few other European countries, were imperialist powers with overseas possessions, which India was not. Even a unified Indian nation state on modern lines is a relatively recent phenomenon. The historical experiences of the two countries have little parallel. It would be more apt to compare India’s, or at a granular level, any of the states’ performance with other similar countries with similar histories.

The seminal event of the 20th century for much of Asia was decolonization and the formation of modern nation states. Many of the economies started from zero; those that had industrialized previously such as Japan were brought back to zero thanks to war. Most of Asia’s leading centers today such as the Asian tigers had their seminal moments in the aftermath of the Second World War.

Comparing India’s own performance as a free republic to its own past as a colony is really pointless. As you can see, it is a stagnant line until after freedom. It is like comparing the heartbeat of a baby before and after its birth - what’s the point? It would make sense to compare India’s economic performance with that of countries such as Japan, China, Thailand, Korea, Singapore etc; its contemporaries. And on that count, you don’t have to dig in much to say India has been a chronic laggard for most of its 70 years as a nation state, only beginning to be in the race now, let alone catch up. Even Pakistan had an economy galloping faster until the 1970s. You could also compare India’s performance to that of West Germany, which was also a zero economy after WW2 and became a new state only in 1949. Most of the modern wealth of nations is a product of the events after 1945.

The real divergence between even India and China started only in the 1980s, when China opened up after realizing socialism there wasn’t really doing anything. Had the Soviet Union never ended in 1991, chances are India would still have been socialist in practice. Thank God the moral argument for socialism really met an end with that. Or it hasn’t, judging by EMR’s posts. There are still some socialist geniuses like Maduro doing the rounds. Laughable.

At any rate, with a per capita GDP of less than USD 2,000 in 2017, a real exercise would be to compare India’s GDP per capita to other leading Asian countries to get a real sense of where India has got it wrong. It is convenient but pointless to blame the British, 70 whole years after they left. You don’t hear Japan lamenting about the US for their economic condition - the latter nuked them twice. The official Japanese poverty line, announced in 2011, is USD 22,000 - for a country that was nuked twice two years before India became free. You don’t hear the Koreans lamenting about the oppression of the Japanese for their economic predicament. I only hope the current and future generations of Indians look more into self-improvement rather than playing these silly blame games.

Last edited by madathil.krishnanunni; Feb 11th 2019 at 4:25 am.
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Old Feb 11th 2019, 7:25 am
  #71  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by EMR
Not an unexpected post from you, diversion , your usual tactics.
Facts really f upset you don,t they.
West Bengal is also not one if India's poorest states.,, socilalisr governenets csn,,t be all that bad...
What advantages does Kerala have , explain please..
EMR you put forward simplistic views and a few basic figures and call it "facts". Since when have you supported Communist governments???
Congress is a socialist party, Kerala has and West Bengal had Communist governments.
The turmoil in West Bengal politics is well known.
Both states have not had 'growth'.
The advantages of Kerala are its tourism, size (not such large areas of small farmers, foresters etc) among much else which the above posters will inform you about.

EMR why this obsession about a place you have spent one holiday visiting?
Your claim to know so much more than people who actually live there.

All this is off topic to Republic Day, why not put forward your opinions of that!
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Old Feb 11th 2019, 7:31 am
  #72  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by madathil.krishnanunni


Sir, I think comparing the UK with India over time on the bases you’ve used is a misleading exercise. The politics of both places have changed so much over this period, with Britain shifting from mercantilist to capitalist to socialist. Britain, like a few other European countries, were imperialist powers with overseas possessions, which India was not. Even a unified Indian nation state on modern lines is a relatively recent phenomenon. The historical experiences of the two countries have little parallel. It would be more apt to compare India’s, or at a granular level, any of the states’ performance with other similar countries with similar histories.

The seminal event of the 20th century for much of Asia was decolonization and the formation of modern nation states. Many of the economies started from zero; those that had industrialized previously such as Japan were brought back to zero thanks to war. Most of Asia’s leading centers today such as the Asian tigers had their seminal moments in the aftermath of the Second World War.

Comparing India’s own performance as a free republic to its own past as a colony is really pointless. As you can see, it is a stagnant line until after freedom. It is like comparing the heartbeat of a baby before and after its birth - what’s the point? It would make sense to compare India’s economic performance with that of countries such as Japan, China, Thailand, Korea, Singapore etc; its contemporaries. And on that count, you don’t have to dig in much to say India has been a chronic laggard for most of its 70 years as a nation state, only beginning to be in the race now, let alone catch up. Even Pakistan had an economy galloping faster until the 1970s. You could also compare India’s performance to that of West Germany, which was also a zero economy after WW2 and became a new state only in 1949. Most of the modern wealth of nations is a product of the events after 1945.

The real divergence between even India and China started only in the 1980s, when China opened up after realizing socialism there wasn’t really doing anything. Had the Soviet Union never ended in 1991, chances are India would still have been socialist in practice. Thank God the moral argument for socialism really met an end with that. Or it hasn’t, judging by EMR’s posts. There are still some socialist geniuses like Maduro doing the rounds. Laughable.

At any rate, with a per capita GDP of less than USD 2,000 in 2017, a real exercise would be to compare India’s GDP per capita to other leading Asian countries to get a real sense of where India has got it wrong. It is convenient but pointless to blame the British, 70 whole years after they left. You don’t hear Japan lamenting about the US for their economic condition - the latter nuked them twice. The official Japanese poverty line, announced in 2011, is USD 22,000 - for a country that was nuked twice two years before India became free. You don’t hear the Koreans lamenting about the oppression of the Japanese for their economic predicament. I only hope the current and future generations of Indians look more into self-improvement rather than playing these silly blame games.
Very good post from you , India as it us currently structured and governed did not exist during the period if British rule so as you post it is pointless making direct comparisons between before and afterwards.
It would be like directly comparing the unsuccessfull cricket or football teams of the past with todays ..,the only connection being the name of the team.
It is fair to compare countries different performances etc on a contemporary basis but anything else is a waste of time and effort.
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Old Feb 11th 2019, 7:32 am
  #73  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR you put forward simplistic views and a few basic figures and call it "facts". Since when have you supported Communist governments???
Congress is a socialist party, Kerala has and West Bengal had Communist governments.
The turmoil in West Bengal politics is well known.
Both states have not had 'growth'.
The advantages of Kerala are its tourism, size (not such large areas of small farmers, foresters etc) among much else which the above posters will inform you about.

EMR why this obsession about a place you have spent one holiday visiting?
Your claim to know so much more than people who actually live there.

All this is off topic to Republic Day, why not put forward your opinions of that!
You clearly have no idea what communism is, come back when you do..


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Old Feb 11th 2019, 7:47 am
  #74  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by EMR
You clearly have no idea what communism is, come back when you do..

The discussion is about the Government of Kerala not worldwide communism.

How would you describe the Communist party of India (Marxist)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinarayi_Vijayan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politb...ndia_(Marxist)

(You didn't answer the question WHY---your obsession with India)

Last edited by Bipat; Feb 11th 2019 at 7:51 am.
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Old Feb 11th 2019, 7:50 am
  #75  
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Default Re: Republic Day

Originally Posted by Bipat
The discussion is about the Government of Kerala not worldwide communism.

How would you describe the Communist party of India (Marxist)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinarayi_Vijayan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politb...ndia_(Marxist)
Again come back when you know what communism is, how it operates , how communist government's work manage economies..
Here is a hint, look at the old USSR, North Korea, Cuba.
Then compare them to the socialist parties you claim are communist.
All that is communist about them is their name., nothing else.

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