As I said Morpeth you know nothing of the history of Goa, its people the other parts of the families and communities outside of the borders. How can YOU make decisions about them.

Its Minister,------- Minister of Defence of the country! "Subject to" ???????

As I said, what do YOU do for the Indian poor??? Please tell us!!!!!!!

I have NOT made excuses ----given you some of the various reasons.

You do not witness the poverty everyday do you? It is not part of YOUR life.

The fact that I can like/feel at home and have at least have actual up to date knowledge of my 'second' country makes me akin to a Hitler/Stalin/ Putin and a "fanatic nationalist"

EMR you get more and more ridiculous. Look at a map---29 States. You had a 3 week holiday!!!! How can you possibly have comprehensive knowledge of road systems.

If course there are bad roads. Badly built roads both old and knew.
There is also a massive increase in trucks, cars, two-wheelers, all traffic.
A normal half hour road journey in Mumbai, can take two hours or more in the 'rush hour'. So yes fly-overs and the metro (as an alternative to driving) have made a big difference.

Did you travel on an overnight bus?
Did you travel between major cities by car?

What do you mean by "middle of the country"??

"Get out more"????????? Been 'getting out" for decades, so maybe you could be said to be the holiday 'rambler'.

It may be helpful if you actually address the question which was raised. (a) did India use force in Goa . YES. FACT (b) is Goa an independent country as a result. NO, FACT (c) Has India in Goa or elsewhere it has used force . held referendums on he desires of the affected people whether they wished to be part of India. NO. FACT. Pretty simple Bipat- I don't need to live in India to know these facts. You have danced around the facts for many posts. Please do explain how you living in India gives you knowledge that India didn't use force ? Had a secret referendum hidden from the world ?

You write India has to use force because other people do not do what they want.Hitler,Putin and Stalin used EXACTLY this sort of reasoning.

What is the nonsense you write about me making decisions for Goans ? You are terribly confused.Because you approve of India using force to get its will you then assume anyone disagreeing about FACTS is anti-Indian.

Actually Bipat several countries were devastated and in much worse shape than India in 1947 and yes renovated their country with less to start with.​​​​​†‹You must be woefully unaware of general Asian history,China and Japan obvious examples. India's chose the policies it followed for decades. The resources India had in place in 1947 were tremendous compared to China or Japan-it chose its path no one else. The 1950s' and 1960's saw growth worldwide which often spilled over into the Third World, some countries adopted sensible policies, some did not.

It is great that in recent years India has adopted more policies, and the hard work, intelligence, creativity of the Indian people can deliver such impressive growth so sometime in this century India' poor can have the lives they deserve- this may take 20 or even 40 years but India seems on a positive path.( Looking at India's per capita income and even projecting current rapid growth rates constantly it will take a few decades to catch up).

So now you defend absurd statues as well as the space program- is there any prestige project you are against ? Could you honestly with a straight face tell the poorest of the poor in India any benefit of India's space program worth not allocating such money and resources to the poorest of the poor ?

Morpeth, India used force to release other Indians/Goans from foreign rule. They were NOT Portuguese. FACT.
I have told you that our towns people went to Kamat Point to watch the ships come in to south Goa.

Indians used violence to help obtain independence from foreign British rule. Should there have been a referendum to find out if Indian people wished to remain under British rule.

A referendum was held in Goa regarding the future----you refuse to read the results.

A referendum regarding part of India? They WERE part of India, they WERE Indians.
Why did relatives of Goans--outside of the border continue to travel to FAMILY temples IN Goa. (By special permission). FACT.

Look at a map Morpeth and ask yourself if Goa would want to be an independent country, continuing to separate themselves from families and community.

They are now part of the 'rule' of the entire Indian country. FACT.

1) You insist on refusing to consider costs. As another poster has said it is more comfortable to be 'middle-class' in India than in the UK.
Sarcasm????? 20-40 years!!!!!!! I see differences each year.

2) You share your 'twin's' reading problems. I have always said I thought the statues dreadful, ugly, unnecessary.
What I did NOT KNOW is that money would be made by selling tickets to millions of domestic tourists who come to look at them!!!!

Once again your inability to comprehend facts is apparent.
I said that based on the low income definition of middle class in India starting at 5$ day ( Mumbai university ) anyone trying to live on the same income in the UK would be regarded as close to living in Poverty.
Would an income of let's say £45 week allow a typical family of let's say parents 3 children own their own home, run a car have all the modern possessions their equivalent middle class family have in the UK., with an income of 15 -20 times that.
Or is your definition of Indian middle class just a clever bit of propaganda..

You also do not understand the difference between gross income from tickets to making enough profit to cover the fantastical cost of the vanity statues.
Only a couple of other nations with ego driven rulers have statues to rival India's, North Korea being one of them.

1) Even for you EMR that is a 'daft' statement. I was relating the income of Indians with the cost of living in India!!!!!
The cost of living in India is way below that of the UK.

(A lot of them seem to save enough to become tourists to Europe and the UK!!!


2) I just pointed out that millions of domestic tourists were visiting and buying tickets--

https://www.ibtimes.co.in/statue-uni...e-world-784927

London seems to have quite a number of statues???? Apparently 300 just in Westminster!

Its you being daft, in terms of living standards, car house etc how do you in India define middle class.
Is just not living in abject Poverty .
E.g., if you have a roof over your head, running water and indoor toilet in India you are middle class..?

India is not that cheap that you have the same quality of life as in the UK for the equivalent of £45 week , even in your fantastical mind.. .

The 300 London statues if all melted down would not make one of the ego driven gigants in India.

What will the next mega statue be costing sqillions, that of the first Indian in space via an Indian rocket, a program also costing untold sqillions.
You must be so proud..

1) EMR you don't understand how the middle class live in India! There is a big difference between city and rural.

Many city people don't have cars -----they use taxis. Business people use the firm car and driver. There are far more two wheelers used by women and men. local trains and buses used.
EMR ---Think about parking problems of the high rise flats!! Think about the traffic problems.
Certainly upper middle class will be more likely to have car(s).
They will often/ it obviously varies---- rent property rather than own.
Most upper middle class will have helpers. (They have unions now and are mostly live-out). India being somewhat dusty!!!!! housework is more difficult and most upper middle class have someone come in to sweep/wash floors etc. This gives work for poor people so mutual benefit.
Lower middle classes may share a helper--
Modern city flats usually have a toilet for each bedroom! UK system of communal bathroom is seen as outdated. Old flats ---different.

Food is FAR cheaper in India anywhere you go. Including restaurants.

Rural middle class far less likely to have a car. Will have a two wheeler or use a rickshaw. Use taxis for longer distances. They are more likely to own their property.
More likely to possess outdoor and indoor toilets, use wells. Again market and small shop food is cheap.

We don't have a car---Use rickshaws and taxis, Use well water---and tap water, indoor and outdoor toilets. I can fill an Asda bag at the supermarket for equivalent of £4.

EMR what do you define as "Quality of Life"?

2) Sardar Patel was an important man----founder of the Republic----he had no statue. (Presume you knew he was a Congress Minister!!) For future generations I doubt it will be known who got it built.
I have agreed SO many times---it didn't have to be that big (or that ugly!!!)
At least some money is getting back.

I said 300 statues in Westminster, far more in 'London'.

So you agree with me.and the facts.
India definition of middle class is its own and has no comparison with that of any other developed nation.
So its just your propoganda


You seem happy to waste squillions on vanity projects.

No I don't agree. I have tried to explain cost of living differences. We are middle class in both countries!!!!!! Can you not accept any differences? Its a different country!!!!
We don't have to change our lifestyle!!!!

How is a statue of a founder of the republic a "vanity " project. I have agreed that it is too big---too ugly------what else can I say??????????????????

I do NOT consider scientific advances and research "vanity" projects.
Do you have SUCH animosity/xenophobia that you cannot bear India to achieve anything???

​​​​​​
You are seriously losing it Bipat.
Time for you to have another cup of tea.
Judging by your nonsense today the effects of the last one have worn off.

SO---Knowing my own lifestyle and that of those around me, knowing cost of living in two countries is losing it ?????

EMR the audacity of a tourist who spends 3 weeks in a country of a billion people in 29 States who thinks he is a expert on everything is-------well?????

You clearly do not understand, you use phrases like poverty and middle class but refuse to accept that yiur definitions are only yours and have no relationship with the definitions of those words in the developed word.
Here is a suggestion, why don,t you just break incomes down into purchasing power.
IE Just how many Indians own a car as a % of the population.
How many a mobile phone.
ANY Similar examples you can find.
I am hardly an expert but unlike you am I not ignorant and ultra nationalistic.

I am anti the vanity projects in the UK, HS2 , the two huge aircraft carriers, I know the money should be better spent unlike you with India's vanity projects who would rather see money spent on them than on the poorest in India.