India and the Wars

Old Mar 14th 2019, 8:33 am
  #796  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
You clearly do not understand, you use phrases like poverty and middle class but refuse to accept that yiur definitions are only yours and have no relationship with the definitions of those words in the developed word.
Here is a suggestion, why don,t you just break incomes down into purchasing power.
IE Just how many Indians own a car as a % of the population.
How many a mobile phone.
ANY Similar examples you can find.
I am hardly an expert but unlike you am I not ignorant and ultra nationalistic.

I am anti the vanity projects in the UK, HS2 , the two huge aircraft carriers, I know the money should be better spent unlike you with India's vanity projects who would rather see money spent on them than on the poorest in India.
EMR you fail to understand differences. I would think a majority of citizens however poor own a mobile phone. Often a modern smart phone!!
Cars, I have told you that other means of transport can be more convenient it is not that they can't afford them. Taxis cost money!!
How many UK middle class take frequent flights?
Can you stand outside your home, stop an empty passing vehicle, within 5 minutes go to shops have it wait, mind your shopping, take you home---I can. (Fill a bag for
£4?)
Eating at an up-market restaurant is surely middle class?
Our favourite in Pune, Shreyas---look it up.
Unlimited thali meal 270 Rs/£2.94. Everything you can eat £2.94!!







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Old Mar 14th 2019, 10:00 am
  #797  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR you fail to understand differences. I would think a majority of citizens however poor own a mobile phone. Often a modern smart phone!!
Cars, I have told you that other means of transport can be more convenient it is not that they can't afford them. Taxis cost money!!
How many UK middle class take frequent flights?
Can you stand outside your home, stop an empty passing vehicle, within 5 minutes go to shops have it wait, mind your shopping, take you home---I can. (Fill a bag for
£4?)
Eating at an up-market restaurant is surely middle class?
Our favourite in Pune, Shreyas---look it up.
Unlimited thali meal 270 Rs/£2.94. Everything you can eat £2.94!!
You still do not understand do you.
Middle class is not about the basics, you said not to mention malls, but here is one example.
A coffee shop in one we went into a coffee was the same price as the meal you quote.
Clothes in the very nice shops prices not that much different to the UK.
It had all the popular global franchises you see in almost any mall, anywhere in the world.
To me that is middle class , it was very, very busy..
It was we were told not the high end mall.
These were not people earning the Mumbai university definition of middle class in India.starting at £5 dollars day..
You think it's good value because you have a UK income and compare prices to UK prices.


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Old Mar 14th 2019, 11:52 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
Morpeth, India used force to release other Indians/Goans from foreign rule. They were NOT Portuguese. FACT.
I have told you that our towns people went to Kamat Point to watch the ships come in to south Goa.

Indians used violence to help obtain independence from foreign British rule. Should there have been a referendum to find out if Indian people wished to remain under British rule.

A referendum was held in Goa regarding the future----you refuse to read the results.

A referendum regarding part of India? They WERE part of India, they WERE Indians.
Why did relatives of Goans--outside of the border continue to travel to FAMILY temples IN Goa. (By special permission). FACT.

Look at



1. I stated originally and simply (a) India has on several occasions used force to impose its will on territorial matters, and second showed a pattern when it does so to not referendums to determine the wishes of the people. Those are FACTS. Once and for all A very simple question- can you deny those two FACTS? How difficult can that to be understood unless there is a language problem

Now you try to give ‘facts’ that have no bearing whether the above two statements were facts or not. But for interest let’s look at what you wrote

2.Morpeth, India used force to release other Indians/Goans from foreign rule. They were NOT Portuguese. FACT.

This is not at all apparent unequivocally a fact as you must know.

(a) De Jure India couldn’t have used force to release other Indians/Goans since there were no Indians/Goans in Goa at the time, it was Portuguese territory ( except any who might have been visiting who held Indian nationality. Second, are you saying Indians and Goans were separate nationalities or ethnic groups ? You then use the word ‘release’ which it isn’t all clear what that means. Were the inhabitants in jail ? Were they unable to travel outside of Goa ? or do you mean released form a situation that India considered unacceptable ? ( As I have said it is scary how close your views are to Stalin,Hitler and Putin).


(b)I have told you that our towns people went to Kamat Point to watch the ships come in to south Goa.

Sorry of what relevance is this ? It is interesting trivia..

( c ) De Facto If I understand it you reject citizenship as a basis for defining who is Indian. You also reject 400 years of history. But you have also in several posts denied there is a general overall Indian culture. So based on you rprior posts, how would one understand what you mean by Indian ? And not knowng that how could one determine whether the inhabitants Indian or not ?

3.Indians used violence to help obtain independence from foreign British rule. Should there have been a referendum to find out if Indian people wished to remain under British rule.

You are confused since you feel it is justified to use violence for India’s will ( just s Hitler, Stalin and Putin have doe) you then see that as an argument to use violence somewhere else. In any case you are very off-topic : I raised the issue that India employs violence, not whether it was justified in the manner you mean. I did point out India signed certain promises to the UN, and also the philosophy you have would wreak chaos in a world that has tried since 1945 o avoid violent confrontations, though of course they have happened.


4.A referendum was held in Goa regarding the future----you refuse to read the results.





As you well know the referendum you refer to has nothing to do with the issue being discussed- that India as usual in such cases refused to hold referendums- so constant is this practice one has to wonder why India is so afraid of asking people what they want in terms of being part of India.

5.A referendum regarding part of India? They WERE part of India, they WERE Indians.

See above.

6.Why did relatives of Goans--outside of the border continue to travel to FAMILY temples IN Goa. (By special permission). FACT.

And so ?

7Look at a map Morpeth and ask yourself if Goa would want to be an independent country, continuing to separate themselves from families and community.

Again you are confused- I wasn’t argue whether Goans did or did not want to be independent, simply they were not given a choice.


8.They are now part of the 'rule' of the entire Indian country. We have no disagreement that Goa is ruled by India.

If you read the White Papers released by the German foreign ministry in the 1930’s t 1942 and simply replace those areas of majority ethnic Germans , and also ruled by Germans just 20 years before, with the word Goa, and replace the name Germany with India, you wil see your position of this matter no different than Hitler’s in somewhat similar circumstances- ad of Stalin Putin reasonably Or if yoru words that India had to use force because Portugal wouldn’t do what India wanted, scary what the world would be like of organized in such a mafia-like fashion. a map Morpeth and ask yourself if Goa would want to be an independent country, continuing to separate themselves from families and community.

They are now part of the 'rule' of the entire Indian country. FACT.
You seem to have a problem with either logic or the language but us try again !




1. I stated originally and simply (a) India has on several occasions used force to impose its will on territorial matters, and second showed a pattern when it does so to not referendums to determine the wishes of the people. Those are FACTS. Once and for all A very simple question- can you deny those two FACTS? How difficult can that to be understood unless there is a language problem

Now you try to give ‘facts’ that have no bearing whether the above two statements were facts or not. But for interest let’s look at what you wrote

2.Morpeth, India used force to release other Indians/Goans from foreign rule. They were NOT Portuguese. FACT.

This is not at all apparent unequivocally a fact as you must know.

(a) De Jure India couldn’t have used force to release other Indians/Goans since there were no Indians/Goans in Goa at the time, it was Portuguese territory ( except any who might have been visiting who held Indian nationality. Second, are you saying Indians and Goans were separate nationalities or ethnic groups ? You then use the word ‘release’ which it isn’t all clear what that means. Were the inhabitants in jail ? Were they unable to travel outside of Goa ? or do you mean released form a situation that India considered unacceptable ? ( As I have said it is scary how close your views are to Stalin,Hitler and Putin).


(b)I have told you that our towns people went to Kamat Point to watch the ships come in to south Goa.

Sorry of what relevance is this ? It is interesting trivia..

( c ) De Facto If I understand it you reject citizenship as a basis for defining who is Indian. You also reject 400 years of history. But you have also in several posts denied there is a general overall Indian culture. So based on you rprior posts, how would one understand what you mean by Indian ? And not knowng that how could one determine whether the inhabitants Indian or not ?

3.Indians used violence to help obtain independence from foreign British rule. Should there have been a referendum to find out if Indian people wished to remain under British rule.

You are confused since you feel it is justified to use violence for India’s will ( just s Hitler, Stalin and Putin have doe) you then see that as an argument to use violence somewhere else. In any case you are very off-topic : I raised the issue that India employs violence, not whether it was justified in the manner you mean. I did point out India signed certain promises to the UN, and also the philosophy you have would wreak chaos in a world that has tried since 1945 o avoid violent confrontations, though of course they have happened.


4.A referendum was held in Goa regarding the future----you refuse to read the results.





As you well know the referendum you refer to has nothing to do with the issue being discussed- that India as usual in such cases refused to hold referendums- so constant is this practice one has to wonder why India is so afraid of asking people what they want in terms of being part of India.

5.A referendum regarding part of India? They WERE part of India, they WERE Indians.

See above.

6.Why did relatives of Goans--outside of the border continue to travel to FAMILY temples IN Goa. (By special permission). FACT.

And so ?

7Look at a map Morpeth and ask yourself if Goa would want to be an independent country, continuing to separate themselves from families and community.

Again you are confused- I wasn’t argue whether Goans did or did not want to be independent, simply they were not given a choice.


8.They are now part of the 'rule' of the entire Indian country. We have no disagreement that Goa is ruled by India.

If you read the White Papers released by the German foreign ministry in the 1930’s t 1942 and simply replace those areas of majority ethnic Germans , and also ruled by Germans just 20 years before, with the word Goa, and replace the name Germany with India, you will see your position of this matter no different than Hitler’s in somewhat similar circumstances- ad of Stalin Putin reasonably Or if your words that India had to use force because Portugal wouldn’t do what India wanted, scary what the world would be like of organized in such a mafia-like fashion.
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Old Mar 14th 2019, 11:59 am
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
1) You insist on refusing to consider costs. As another poster has said it is more comfortable to be 'middle-class' in India than in the UK.
Sarcasm????? 20-40 years!!!!!!! I see differences each year.

2) You share your 'twin's' reading problems. I have always said I thought the statues dreadful, ugly, unnecessary.
What I did NOT KNOW is that money would be made by selling tickets to millions of domestic tourists who come to look at them!!!!
Not sarcasm just math !! I know economics for you is challenging but you can easily do the calculation taking the nominal or even purchasing power parity figures, current growth rates an project forward.​​( you mention costs so you may wish to look up what purchasing power parity means).

Actually it wouldn't surprise me at all if one looks all the factors that a middle class person could have a better quality of life and material standard in the UK.

​​​​
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Old Mar 14th 2019, 8:20 pm
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth
You seem to have a problem with either logic or the language but us try again !




1. I stated originally and simply (a) India has on several occasions used force to impose its will on territorial matters, and second showed a pattern when it does so to not referendums to determine the wishes of the people. Those are FACTS. Once and for all A very simple question- can you deny those two FACTS? How difficult can that to be understood unless there is a language problem

Now you try to give ‘facts’ that have no bearing whether the above two statements were facts or not. But for interest let’s look at what you wrote

2.Morpeth, India used force to release other Indians/Goans from foreign rule. They were NOT Portuguese. FACT.

This is not at all apparent unequivocally a fact as you must know.

(a) De Jure India couldn’t have used force to release other Indians/Goans since there were no Indians/Goans in Goa at the time, it was Portuguese territory ( except any who might have been visiting who held Indian nationality. Second, are you saying Indians and Goans were separate nationalities or ethnic groups ? You then use the word ‘release’ which it isn’t all clear what that means. Were the inhabitants in jail ? Were they unable to travel outside of Goa ? or do you mean released form a situation that India considered unacceptable ? ( As I have said it is scary how close your views are to Stalin,Hitler and Putin).


(b)I have told you that our towns people went to Kamat Point to watch the ships come in to south Goa.

Sorry of what relevance is this ? It is interesting trivia..

( c ) De Facto If I understand it you reject citizenship as a basis for defining who is Indian. You also reject 400 years of history. But you have also in several posts denied there is a general overall Indian culture. So based on you rprior posts, how would one understand what you mean by Indian ? And not knowng that how could one determine whether the inhabitants Indian or not ?

3.Indians used violence to help obtain independence from foreign British rule. Should there have been a referendum to find out if Indian people wished to remain under British rule.

You are confused since you feel it is justified to use violence for India’s will ( just s Hitler, Stalin and Putin have doe) you then see that as an argument to use violence somewhere else. In any case you are very off-topic : I raised the issue that India employs violence, not whether it was justified in the manner you mean. I did point out India signed certain promises to the UN, and also the philosophy you have would wreak chaos in a world that has tried since 1945 o avoid violent confrontations, though of course they have happened.


4.A referendum was held in Goa regarding the future----you refuse to read the results.





As you well know the referendum you refer to has nothing to do with the issue being discussed- that India as usual in such cases refused to hold referendums- so constant is this practice one has to wonder why India is so afraid of asking people what they want in terms of being part of India.

5.A referendum regarding part of India? They WERE part of India, they WERE Indians.

See above.

6.Why did relatives of Goans--outside of the border continue to travel to FAMILY temples IN Goa. (By special permission). FACT.

And so ?

7Look at a map Morpeth and ask yourself if Goa would want to be an independent country, continuing to separate themselves from families and community.

Again you are confused- I wasn’t argue whether Goans did or did not want to be independent, simply they were not given a choice.


8.They are now part of the 'rule' of the entire Indian country. We have no disagreement that Goa is ruled by India.

If you read the White Papers released by the German foreign ministry in the 1930’s t 1942 and simply replace those areas of majority ethnic Germans , and also ruled by Germans just 20 years before, with the word Goa, and replace the name Germany with India, you will see your position of this matter no different than Hitler’s in somewhat similar circumstances- ad of Stalin Putin reasonably Or if your words that India had to use force because Portugal wouldn’t do what India wanted, scary what the world would be like of organized in such a mafia-like fashion.
Morpeth these discussions/arguments depend on whether you approve of the European Empires or not.
Yes, such Empires existed throughout history; we are discussing the 20th century---we are now in the 21st century.
Most people have different views now ---you have not.

Regards Goa you refuse to accept that as you are not Goan, know nothing about Goa and its surroundings and that you cannot understand the situation there. Goa is involved in the Government of India it is NOT subservient to India. Unless you would consider Norfolk ruled by and subservient to Britain???

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Old Mar 14th 2019, 8:38 pm
  #801  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
Morpeth these discussions/arguments depend on whether you approve of the European Empires or not.
Yes, such Empires existed throughout history; we are discussing the 20th century---we are now in the 21st century.
Most people have different views now ---you have not.

Regards Goa you refuse to accept that as you are not Goan, know nothing about Goa and its surroundings and that you cannot understand the situation there. Goa is involved in the Government of India it is NOT subservient to India. Unless you would consider Norfolk ruled by and subservient to Britain???
Its got nothing at all to do with historical empires , please Don,t delude yourself that anyone believes that you regard this as justification for the military invasion of a territory that was not part of the sovereign state of India created in 1947..
Your justification of " kith and Kin " as grounds for invasion was that used by Hitler .
You àe simply a proto Indian nationalist, just admit it and this particular discussion will come to an end because no one who regards, law and sovereignty as foundations of our society will ever agree with you..

Last edited by EMR; Mar 14th 2019 at 9:14 pm.
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Old Mar 14th 2019, 8:46 pm
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth
Not sarcasm just math !! I know economics for you is challenging but you can easily do the calculation taking the nominal or even purchasing power parity figures, current growth rates an project forward.​​( you mention costs so you may wish to look up what purchasing power parity means).

Actually it wouldn't surprise me at all if one looks all the factors that a middle class person could have a better quality of life and material standard in the UK.

​​​​
Morpeth what is described as "middle class" whether in UK or India is open to different definitions.

Within middle classes there will be great differences in income and situations.

In India as I said above differences between those living in major cities and those in rural towns.

Again you and EMR refuse to accept the differences of the two countries-----

For example middle class and wealthy in India may not own a car ---not because they can't afford to buy but because other means of transport are more convenient.
Even differences between cities----in Mumbai ---taxis ordered within minutes-----Pune, Chennai more difficult. I don't know any 'middle class' in the latter that don't own a car(s) but many in Mumbai that don't want one. Also the differences in bus and train availability-----Very few ---possibly none--- middle-class in Pune travel by bus, many in Chennai do.

Items again will vary according to where you live-----white goods in Chennai (from Singapore) less expensive more choice than other cities.

If you take food and clothes certainly far more purchasing power in India than in the UK. (EMR countrywide the majority don't even visit the massive malls let alone buy there).

Private schools------ both countries very expensive. I get the impression more make use of private schools in India but obviously don't have figures.

Morpeth -----I would think that you would accept that in both countries the professions are middle class. I can assure you that in general those in India have far more purchasing power than those in the UK and have a more comfortable life (although again it depends what you define as a 'comfortable life.)







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Old Mar 14th 2019, 9:23 pm
  #803  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
Morpeth what is described as "middle class" whether in UK or India is open to different definitions.

Within middle classes there will be great differences in income and situations.

In India as I said above differences between those living in major cities and those in rural towns.

Again you and EMR refuse to accept the differences of the two countries-----

For example middle class and wealthy in India may not own a car ---not because they can't afford to buy but because other means of transport are more convenient.
Even differences between cities----in Mumbai ---taxis ordered within minutes-----Pune, Chennai more difficult. I don't know any 'middle class' in the latter that don't own a car(s) but many in Mumbai that don't want one. Also the differences in bus and train availability-----Very few ---possibly none--- middle-class in Pune travel by bus, many in Chennai do.

Items again will vary according to where you live-----white goods in Chennai (from Singapore) less expensive more choice than other cities.

If you take food and clothes certainly far more purchasing power in India than in the UK. (EMR countrywide the majority don't even visit the massive malls let alone buy there).

Private schools------ both countries very expensive. I get the impression more make use of private schools in India but obviously don't have figures.

Morpeth -----I would think that you would accept that in both countries the professions are middle class. I can assure you that in general those in India have far more purchasing power than those in the UK and have a more comfortable life (although again it depends what you define as a 'comfortable life.)
Are you suggesting that the professions have as little as £45 week spending power to cover everything in your post..
The argument is not about the existence of a growing " affluent " middle class but the artificially low designation of what qualifies in India as " middle class "..
Anyone just reading statistics and not aware of the low bench mark set as the qualification for " middle class " would assume that India is a very different country from what it really is .
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Old Mar 14th 2019, 10:05 pm
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
Are you suggesting that the professions have as little as £45 week spending power to cover everything in your post..
The argument is not about the existence of a growing " affluent " middle class but the artificially low designation of what qualifies in India as " middle class "..
Anyone just reading statistics and not aware of the low bench mark set as the qualification for " middle class " would assume that India is a very different country from what it really is .

EMR----it is not what is generally described as 'middle class' in India but what that particular study describes as middle class.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/...g-middle-class

Many in India would disagree that street vendors etc are middle class, however the study, I think, was choosing those that could move up in life. Remember that most famous street tea vendor!!!! (Opposition never let him forget it.)

I, myself was choosing just one group that both India and UK would describe as middle class and pointing out that in general they get more for their money in India than in UK.
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Old Mar 14th 2019, 10:25 pm
  #805  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR----it is not what is generally described as 'middle class' in India but what that particular study describes as middle class.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/...g-middle-class

Many in India would disagree that street vendors etc are middle class, however the study, I think, was choosing those that could move up in life. Remember that most famous street tea vendor!!!! (Opposition never let him forget it.)

I, myself was choosing just one group that both India and UK would describe as middle class and pointing out that in general they get more for their money in India than in UK.
If you comprehended my post you will see that I did not dispute the growing affluence of those who would be regarded as middle class in the world.
Given the prices in the malls they frequent , i would dispute that they get more for their money.

Thank you for confirming that India does have its own definition of middle class that is not in line with other nations.
So any statistics you provide must be taken with a huge pinch of salt..
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Old Mar 14th 2019, 10:39 pm
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
If you comprehended my post you will see that I did not dispute the growing affluence of those who would be regarded as middle class in the world.
Given the prices in the malls they frequent , i would dispute that they get more for their money.

Thank you for confirming that India does have its own definition of middle class that is not in line with other nations.
So any statistics you provide must be taken with a huge pinch of salt..

EMR ----are you capable of reading? It is this particular study, by this particular college-----IT IS NOT INDIA!!!


The majority of Indians do not see street vendors as middle class however many are NOT poor!!!!!

The majority of middle class in India do not frequent malls and certainly don't buy in them. I have told you this before only major cities even have them.

You were taken there as a tourist. As anywhere out to get tourist money!!!!
As I told you before many Indians poor and middle class frequent malls to look around and to use the food halls or toilets.

I am UK middleclass and have looked round several malls in several cities-----I have never bought anything---many of the outlets are just showcases.
The same could be said for many airport outlets.



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Old Mar 14th 2019, 10:55 pm
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Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR ----are you capable of reading? It is this particular study, by this particular college-----IT IS NOT INDIA!!!


The majority of Indians do not see street vendors as middle class however many are NOT poor!!!!!

The majority of middle class in India do not frequent malls and certainly don't buy in them. I have told you this before only major cities even have them.

You were taken there as a tourist. As anywhere out to get tourist money!!!!
As I told you before many Indians poor and middle class frequent malls to look around and to use the food halls or toilets.

I am UK middleclass and have looked round several malls in several cities-----I have never bought anything---many of the outlets are just showcases.
The same could be said for many airport outlets.
The university of Mumbai is not Indian, then where is it..

We went to the very busy Malls to see the growing affluence in India, our guide was very proud of it.
Just as he took us to areas suffering from drought where farmers have abandoned land and live on relief from government.
To a local Hindhu temple in a town rarely visited by tourists for the evening service.,
To towns and villages where we saw no other tourists...

You seem unable to comprehend that to use middle class as a designation without qualifying it is just propoganda.
Definition of middle class in the UK is a disposable income for a typical family owning its own home etc , ( spending power not income ) of £50,000 plus year, background, qualification, type of work no longer come into it,

Your definition seems to be, unless you are in the poverty category you are middle class, this is nonsense.

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Old Mar 14th 2019, 11:34 pm
  #808  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
The university of Mumbai is not Indian, then where is it..

We went to the very busy Malls to see the growing affluence in India, our guide was very proud of it.
Just as he took us to areas suffering from drought where farmers have abandoned land and live on relief from government.
To a local Hindhu temple in a town rarely visited by tourists for the evening service.,
To towns and villages where we saw no other tourists...

You seem unable to comprehend that to use middle class as a designation without qualifying it is just propoganda.
Definition of middle class in the UK is a disposable income for a typical family owning its own home etc , ( spending power not income ) of £50,000 plus year, background, qualification, type of work no longer come into it,

Your definition seems to be, unless you are in the poverty category you are middle class, this is nonsense.

EMR-----is every study by any UK university accepted as what the 'UK' ---thinks'?
Did you actually read the link????

I have not given a definition of middle class only suggested that in most countries 'professionals' are described as 'middle class'-----how would YOU describe them EMR?
I think also many UK people would dispute your definition of 'middle class'.

EMR this recent topic on this thread was regarding lifestyle and what you get for your money.
I would repeat what you get for your money is more in India.
(For heavens [I edited my original word] sake EMR -------I spend in both countries coming and going during all years.)

PS---- Just for interest which 'towns and villages' did you go to where you saw no other tourists??

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Old Mar 14th 2019, 11:41 pm
  #809  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
Morpeth these discussions/arguments depend on whether you approve of the European Empires or not.
Yes, such Empires existed throughout history; we are discussing the 20th century---we are now in the 21st century.
Most people have different views now ---you have not.

Regards Goa you refuse to accept that as you are not Goan, know nothing about Goa and its surroundings and that you cannot understand the situation there. Goa is involved in the Government of India it is NOT subservient to India. Unless you would consider Norfolk ruled by and subservient to Britain???
This is why you have such difficulty dealing with facts or answering questions- someone raises a topic or mentions a fact, and you avoid and start discussing unrelated - so it is frustrating communicating on the issue.

It is absurd to write I refuse to accept I am not Goan since that is obvious,I have never denied Goa or Goans are not involved with the Indian government,and unless I am mistaken Goa is neither an independent country and is subject to the national laws of India.The whole sentence is nonsense or irrelevant Totally illogical. do I need to be German to know that Germany fired V2 rockets in WWII ? Do I need to be Chinese to know that the Long March occurred led by communists ? Does one need to be Goan to know that India used force and Goa is not an independent country ? Except for your bias and refusal to consider evidence, you probably through conversations have more an idea of how ordinary Goans felt in 1961 than I do- but that wasnt the discussion !!!! You would find these discussions a lot easier if you actually answered the questions without going off on a tangent.If because of PC conventional ideology people have opinions not based on evidence or logic isn't really a matter of concern for me. Your nonsense about taxation in British India is a prime example.

We were discussing advantages or disadvantages of British rule in India, not whether it was right or wrong.And this arose because of your constant excuses for Indian underdevelopment and blaming the British. And if the issue is a moral one, then why would it matter is 40 years o 100 years ago or today ?

For example India in 1947 had the best infrastructure, industrial capacity of almost any country in Asia but somehow idiotic anti-growth policies for over 50 years do not seem to register for you, nor does any evidence, or do you even consider different narratives and evidence before you come to a conclusion.

Norfolk not subservient to UK laws and regulations ? You must live in an alternate universe.
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Old Mar 14th 2019, 11:53 pm
  #810  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
Morpeth what is described as "middle class" whether in UK or India is open to different definitions.

Within middle classes there will be great differences in income and situations.

In India as I said above differences between those living in major cities and those in rural towns.

Again you and EMR refuse to accept the differences of the two countries-----

For example middle class and wealthy in India may not own a car ---not because they can't afford to buy but because other means of transport are more convenient.
Even differences between cities----in Mumbai ---taxis ordered within minutes-----Pune, Chennai more difficult. I don't know any 'middle class' in the latter that don't own a car(s) but many in Mumbai that don't want one. Also the differences in bus and train availability-----Very few ---possibly none--- middle-class in Pune travel by bus, many in Chennai do.

Items again will vary according to where you live-----white goods in Chennai (from Singapore) less expensive more choice than other cities.

If you take food and clothes certainly far more purchasing power in India than in the UK. (EMR countrywide the majority don't even visit the massive malls let alone buy there).

Private schools------ both countries very expensive. I get the impression more make use of private schools in India but obviously don't have figures.Again you and EMR refuse to accept the differences of the two countries-----


Morpeth -----I would think that you would accept that in both countries the professions are middle class. I can assure you that in general those in India have far more purchasing power than those in the UK and have a more comfortable life (although again it depends what you define as a 'comfortable life.)
Bipat you keep writing things that make no sense ! You wrote : "Again you and EMR refuse to accept the differences of the two countries-----" If look at posts other he timeline of these discussions that point has been made repeatedly by either EMR or myself about different issues, in relation to the differences. And in relation to the lifestyle and purchasing power of the middle class in India vs UK I just finished posting that it wouldn't ih the least surprise me hat a middle class Indian had a better material let alone general better quality of life.

You are obviously struggling with either the language or not paying attention

As far as the comparison of the poor, I provided links and documentation, you had none as usual yet continued to argue for a rather fanciful vision.

As far as the middle class based on my own experience living in third world countries, and conversations with people I know from the subcontinent, I havent the slightest reason to doubt your comment though as you say it may depend on one's version of what a comfortable life is. I think you are correct but that is only from anecdotal experience ( I havent done any study in the issue) I have had in third world countries. For example when I lived in American Mexican professionals we brought it all said the same thing- that their quality of life better in Mexico let alone education for their children
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