oceanMDX

I live among dozens of Americans in a development right here in Mexico. Many voted for Bush mainly because he'll lower their taxes. Kerry would have raised them.

oceanMDX

Where in Ontario do you live?

CalgaryAMC

I have found statistics. Government statistics.

There are about 750,000 (the statistics are 14 years old) Canadians in the US who are either legal permanent residents, or naturalized American citizens.
(http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/abo...istics/299.htm)

Now we also know that over 200,000 Canadians enter the US each year for a long-term reason, but not as permanent residents. 137,000 enter for employment, thousands others for marriage or whatever else. So, at any one time, there are hundreds of thousands there for some long-term reason.
(http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/abo...bk/2003IMM.pdf)

I rest my case: we are dealing in millions.

(edited: I rested, rather than arrested my case)

oceanMDX

Thanks for that info. Previously, we only had the number of Canadians with legal permanent residence in the US. That number didn't include Canadians who have already obtained US citizenship. So the total number of Canadians who were residents of the US (the people counted in the census) was just under 750,000 14 years ago.

After browsing through the charts, I have absolutely no idea from where you are getting these numbers. I don't believe that 200,000 Canadians enter the US each year for a long-term reason that is related to US residency. This number is completely absurd! We aren't talking about tourists or short-term business trips where the people are entering the US but live in Canada.

But millions of what? Millions of business/employment visits regarding Canadians who actually reside in Canada?

CalgaryAMC

How indeed did I get that number. Certainly not from the link I posted. My error. I got it from this one:
http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/abo...k/2003TEMP.pdf

And I calculated it by adding up all the Canadians entering the US in a status I considered not temporary (117,000 workers, a few thousand spouses, a few thousand dependents, fiances, children, and so on). I think it would be inappropriate to classify these people as temporary, even though they are not technically immigrants.

In any event, I have been skilfully drawn into an argument I did not make. This "millions" issue started in a direct response to SirTainly, who said:

According to this website there are 200-300 000 Australians in the UK at any one time...

To which I responded:

Canadians in the US would be measured in millions.

And that is clearly true. We're just arguing how to slice the pie.

oceanMDX

Thanks for the link, it contains lots of interesting info.

You can't consider them to be any thing but temporary since the US Government clearly considers them to be temporary. They are classified as "temporary workers and trainees, exchange visitors, intracompany transferees, North American Free Trade Agreement Workers" - obviously intended to all be temporary. I also disagree with your interpretion of the numbers. At 117,000 I believe - although it's not clear - that all spouses and other dependents that go to the US are included in that total. If we assume I'm wrong, the total number would be increased by a factor of 2 or more - say 250,000. That number seems too high to be for real. 117,000 temporary visas for Canadians working (or studying) in the US each year is plausible - more than double that figure is not. Also, a significant number of Canadians in the US on temporary visas don't even live in the US. Like the nurse living in Fort Erie, Ontario who only works in Buffalo across the bridge, or my friend - the trucker - who drives to LA to pick up bananas for the Vancouver market. He lives in nice home in Vancouver, and has never had a place to stay in the US - the only place he has to sleep while in the US is his truck.

If you want to include the 117,000 on temporary visas, you may as well count the millions of Canadians that visit the US each year as tourists. Some of them spend all winter (the "snowbirds") in places like Florida or Arizona. I don't know what the numbers are now, but a decade or so ago, 2.6 million Canadians visited Florida alone each year.

CalgaryAMC

The numbers are not entirely clear to me either. My interpretation was that the 117,000 was just the people admitted on those particular work visas. But it isn't clear.

In any event, I would be willing to bet that at any one time there are at least a million Canadians in the US for whatever reason.

Breaking the numbers down, all we can say is that about 750,000 of them are there in permanent status, the rest we don't know very much about, be we know that at least 117,000 entered the US last year on a visa that allowed them to remain in the US for a year or more.

Now, let me explain why I am a reluctant to concede a clear distinction between immigrants and non-immigrants ("temporary" visitors). The reason is that, unlike Canada, the majority of immigrants to the US enter under a non-immigrant status and then become permanent residents at a later date. In Canada, by contrast, most immigrants enter Canada as permanent residents. That is because in the US many visas permit dual intent. In other words, you may enter as an H1B (as about 30,000 Canadians do each year) with the intention of immigrating, and apply for permanent residency later on.

Logically, it must be the case that a lot of Canadians are doing something like this. Otherwise, if only about 10,000 are entering on green cards each year, it would take 75 years to reach our 750,000 number, and that assumes that no one dies or leaves in that time...so people must be changing from temporary to permanent status. Other people know they can't qualify for permanent residency status (perhaps they have been convicted of a crime, or would fail the medical exam, or whatever else), so they live in the US permanently in a non-immigrant status and never apply for permanent residency.

Take my case, as an example. I entered under a K3 (spouse) non-immigrant visa. That visa allows me to live and work in the US and to apply for permanent residency at a time of my choosing. It's convenient because a K3 visa takes a few months to process, whilst permanent residency takes years - like it does in Canada. But few would consider my move temporary -- I have a social security number and I file US tax returns. And the same goes for the hundreds of thousands on H1Bs or any of the scores of other "non-immigrant" statuses that permit dual intent.

But I digress...

CalgaryAMC

And note the estimate of 120,000 Canadians who are living in the US illegally

http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/abo...istics/299.htm

Alberta_Rose

Time to kill this thread I think!

liftman

As this thread that Mrs Liftman and I started now stands at No.2 in the all time number of replies and No. 4 in all time views, I think that it is a good point for us to go out on a high!

Thanks to all of the positive replies, and Blllaaahh!!! to all of the negative!


We have enjoyed our time here, and see you all in another forum one day.


Take care,

Love & Kisses

Liftman & Mrs Liftman

the-smiths

Just before you go, have you tried New Brusnwick at all? You know it doesn't matter where you end up initially, once you get your PR, you can even move to Quebec.

There is a post here somewhere about NB wanting immigrants for 2005/2006, might worth a try. If Nova Scotia is where you want to end up, you can still move there later.

That is something many people don't realize.

Alberta_Rose

My point was really that what it had boiled down to was mainly two people arguing over statistics, and little to do with the original thread.

Good luck to the Liftman's, and have a great life, wherever you end up!!!

Morw

CalgaryAMC

I'm not insulted that you find the debate between oceanMDX and me a waste of time. Our debates usually are. And I will be the first to blame oceanMDX for starting them. But if I had a nickle for every waste of time discussion on these forums, I would be very rich indeed.

oceanMDX

Certainly our discussion was off topic - most threads on this forum end up that way without our help - but I did learn something worthwhile by your posts on this thread despite that. If you were honest, you would admit the same. If in your view, the discussion was a "waste of time", you didn't have to continue with it. A bigger problem for you though, is your inability to accept responsibility for your actions. Understand that most North American employers aren't impressed by those who tend to shirk responsibility - we see it as cowardice.

the-smiths

This thread is living up to it's name eh ?........LOL I thought it was us ladies that are supposed to be the ones throwing handbags and teddies around. O.K boys all your stats were very educative.