Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

George Zimmermann got off. Some parallels. Gun nut who felt threatened.

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

Fella. I'm purely looking at the evidence, and coming up with an objective view as to whether the judge has enough evidence or not to convict him of murder. I have no opinion whether he is guilty of murder or not. I don't care. What I find fascinating about the case is the complexity. If you are going to throw your expertise about "south African law" kindly back it up with some facts cause right now your word against nothing is useless.

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

A slight difference, he got jumped by the guy. Reeva was locked behind a door - screaming!

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

Yup, he murdered her alright. Just have to work on premeditated or poor impulse control. Folk did hear screaming but I assume Oscar must be deaf because he could not or chose not to hear it. Any which way you look at it, he shot at her FOUR times. He certainly intended to make sure the person behind that door was toast and he did a good job of it.:sneaky:

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

They appear to have both been men with a heightened fear of crime. That seemed to work as a defence for Zimmermann.

I have not followed the Pistorius case closely. It seems weak, but strange things happen in court.

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

In regard to your last sentence. Yes indeed.

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

It suggests here that he's an accomplished liar who's managed to wriggle off the hook before.

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/artic.../#.U1kv6PmSySo

And these interviews suggest that he's received coaching for over a year now - no doubt the best that money can buy. A few really telling remarks too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9L3f0TtMqQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut6-X8X7lEA

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

That article in the Daily Maverick gives me a headache.

I think I'd far rather read some South African legal journals. You've got plenty of those handy right?

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

If you think it'll help you get rid of that bee that's buzzing around in your bonnet then yes, go ahead.

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

Ah ha ....... Ding ding.

So what do you think the judge will rule when she gives her verdict?

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

Thread title - Pistorius Guilty or not?

Doesn't matter what we think, or what we know, or what we think we know, the judge will decide. Anything else is just noise :argue:

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

Depends if she believes him or not. What's your opinion?

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

Well, you didn't give any credence to my opinion, despite the very same thing happening to me less than 3 months ago, so not sure that will help you with your apparent independent deliberations either. (I say the same thing - different outcome. There actually was someone in my house, I checked where my wife & kids were, called security, who turned up after they'd gone with my laptop and wallet. No-one died, because I'm not a trigger-happy psychopath).

FWIW, I think he'll get the equivalent of manslaughter and 7 years.

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

The manslaughter and 7 years would be if she believes his story, right? And if she doesn't believe his story it could be about double that. Both of the above would be relatively modest because I'm assuming the judge accepts that he's been dealt a tough hand in life (born with a disability, lost his mum at a young age, etc). But even that can't be taken for granted because relative to the wider SA'n population he's had a life of privilege, good fortune and Oom Arnie.

But it's in Africa ...anything is possible there :unsure:

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

Exactly. On all counts. I am convinced he did it deliberately - but I am not convinced it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt. But - letting guns off in a café and in a car, plus shooting through a door when not under a direct threat (even if you know a machine-gun wielding murderer is waiting there) are all illegal here, and they have been pretty well proven. So 7 years should be the minimum he is facing.

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

Yes, the "proven beyond reasonable doubt" aspect is a major issue. Another problem area is the allegation (with supporting photographic proof) that police tampered with evidence at the crime scene.

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

The first shot was lucky,he fired at her 'head',continued on when he knew she was falling,n got lucky again,2 shots killed her,enough said.

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

I believe he will be done for culpable homicide with a lot of neglect. There's too much reasonable doubt to go with murder.

That's the point I've been making all along and it seems like you now agree. You have as much evidence as the judge so if your gut feels he committed murder but your head says manslaughter then run with the big organ at the top of your body.

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

So sounds like we are we running culpable homicide then?

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

But if someone asks you if you think someone is guilty, that's a gut reaction based on media evidence.

Not the same as saying, "What do you think the outcome of the trial will be?"

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

True, but isn't it better to rule with your head rather than your gut especially when such lengthy sentences are involved?

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

Yes, but I was referring to the thread title.

If I were actually involved in judging him in a court of law of course I would take everything on board.

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

But you would rather think with you gut, where you don't take everything on board? Is that what you are saying?

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

What I meant was that there are two different approaches here:

1. The actual court case. What a bunch of people on the internet think has no bearing on it. It should of course be judged on the evidence.

2. If someone in a bar, or on BE, says, "Do you think Pistorius is guilty or not guilty of murder?", that's just a talking shop for 'gut feelings'.

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

Are you not meant to take on only the evidence that is considered admissable? Cases in the past have been lost where jurors have gone off and done their own research, and judges need to make a decision about what other evidence they are going to allow.

I understand that this is a sole judge decision, but s/he still needs to follow the rules of evidence.


S

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

Right. Gotcha. I'll take No. 1.

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

:lol:

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

OK Paurly. Just for you I'll take your bar room guidance :)

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

:D Only if the beers are on you! :drinkingbeer:

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

Beers are always on me, except for tonight. Nice cruiser round Sydney Harbour. Engagement party. Groom was very generous. :)

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

Absolutely - I don't think the prosecution can really prove that he adjusted his shot for her falling. It woud be hard for anyone.

The point about culpability along with negligence to say nothing of recklessness (a UK view) is the point I subscribe to as well. He was reckless in the act - (and has been proven negligent in the past).

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

And that's a point. Previous history of being reckless suggests that is just what he is, rather than a murderer.

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

But surely, purely by his recklessness in this respect, he put bullets in a live person who then died so he is a murderer? Regardless of whether he did it by accident or on purpose.

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

I have not been following this thread but have followed the story. Its damning when you fire 4 times "Accidentally" through a closed door. I also believe he was arguing/fighting with her. My opinion makes no difference and I have no vote, but even in the US he would be convicted of something. I believe its jealous filled rage murder.

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

I believe if it were an accident it would be the equivalent of manslaughter or culpuble homicide as its called in South Africa. But you have a point. He did intend to shoot something behind the door, but I believe his argument is self defense.

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

He will be convicted. It just a matter of what. I don't think there's any suggestion that he accidently shot. Its a matter of who he thought he was shooting at.

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

Just how threatened are you to shoot someone FOUR times behind a locked door? Then you take a bat to smash open the door to open it so you can face the supposed threatening intruder! Would you not run thinking you have time to escape from the supposed threat.

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

If I liked guns, had a history of being reckless, and only had a couple of stumps as legs, running may be no go. I don't know, wasn't there, anyhow, how does this prove murder?

Re: Pistorius. Guilty or not?
 

It all seems to hinge on the push-pull of the two words: "reasonably believe" - Both for the defence who is claiming that Pistorius reasonably believed he was shooting intruders and the prosecution who is saying no-one can reasonably believe Pistorius' story.