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Old May 26th 2017, 1:19 pm
  #46  
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Default Re: Manchester

Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
So lets make the ban a starting point and work the discussion up from there. If you were to put Islam on the same society harming pedestal as drugs and gangs, then a ban is the correct starting point.

But without some type of leadership, the above won't happen. Perhaps control is the only way.
The war on drugs didn't work. You can ban anything, and just increase its attractiveness to the young/dumb/c*m cadre. It's a failing of the right wing mindset I'm afraid - the idea that more rules and more laws will make people do what you want. The authoritarian mindset hasn't worked in hundreds of years, but still it the first resort of certain people.

And approaching the leadership angle was what as tried back in 2001 - trying to get community leaders onside. Think that worked?

Rather than trying to take down websites etc. you behave more intelligently and allow them to highlight those that are thinking violent thoughts.

Originally Posted by BadgeIsBack View Post
Best ever 'expert bloke in pub' comment ever !
I'm not claiming to know exactly what they are doing today, but I do know the thought process governing it back 10 years ago. And I know that straight forward, main force, isn't going to work (it hasn't worked up until now, and the young/dumb/c*m cadre are an ever replenishing resource - you don't win by playing whack'a'mole).

You win by making terrorism as attractive as flared jeans.
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Old May 26th 2017, 1:48 pm
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Default Re: Manchester

Young and dumb works perfectly well thanks.
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Old May 26th 2017, 2:39 pm
  #48  
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Default Re: Manchester

Originally Posted by spouse of scouse View Post
I suspect DV was referring to the typical lashing out at Muslim people in general that follows these attacks. No one tolerates or loves bastard murdering twats, that goes without saying.
You suspect right.

I dated a very nice Muslim woman in the days of 9/11, too good for me for it to last, and we had some interesting conversations regarding tolerance.

Love will win, that's it.

We Are All One.
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Old May 26th 2017, 3:05 pm
  #49  
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Default Re: Manchester

Originally Posted by DeadVim View Post
You suspect right.

I dated a very nice Muslim woman in the days of 9/11, too good for me for it to last, and we had some interesting conversations regarding tolerance.

Love will win, that's it.

We Are All One.
Well said that man
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Old May 26th 2017, 3:53 pm
  #50  
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Default Re: Manchester

Originally Posted by Gordon Barlow View Post
An excellent suggestion. Those who advocate violence ought be forced to witness the result of it. Many commentators consider Islamic terrorism in Western cities to be "blowback" from Western countries' terrorist activities in the Middle East - the murder and mutilation of peaceful villagers by British bombs, and the like. So maybe we should add a few British archbishops and MPs to the presentations. Same horror, same murders, same mutilations, same ruthless attitude towards people of a different culture. Same absence of remorse...
Same denialism. Same revisionism. Same excuses. Same refusal to face reality.
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Old May 26th 2017, 3:57 pm
  #51  
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Default Re: Manchester

Originally Posted by DeadVim View Post
Love will win, that's it.

We Are All One.
That works - after the revenge is dealt out
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Old May 27th 2017, 1:55 am
  #52  
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Default Re: Manchester

Originally Posted by Amazulu View Post
That works - after the revenge is dealt out
But isn't that the same argument they are using. Preaching hate and intolerance comes from both sides. And integration isn't a one way street - for immigrants to integrate into our society fully, we also need to stop being so intolerant.
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Old May 27th 2017, 3:08 am
  #53  
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Default Re: Manchester

Originally Posted by old.sparkles View Post
But isn't that the same argument they are using. Preaching hate and intolerance comes from both sides. And integration isn't a one way street - for immigrants to integrate into our society fully, we also need to stop being so intolerant.
Apologist bullshit and mumbo jumbo

I see little intolerance in the west towards islam - in fact, it's the opposite. But I see plenty of intolerance coming the other way - I don't see Christians suicide bombing in the middle-east

Wake up
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Old May 27th 2017, 7:14 am
  #54  
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Default Re: Manchester

Originally Posted by Amazulu View Post
That works - after the revenge is dealt out
Revenge where Zulu ? Do you mean ripping off Hijabs, sending people to camps, Killing 100 of theirs for everyone one of "ours". Closing down Mosques and Schools ?

Or Maybe just Nuking somewhere ?

Revenge exactly where ?
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Old May 27th 2017, 7:50 am
  #55  
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Default Re: Manchester

Originally Posted by Amazulu View Post
That works - after the revenge is dealt out
So you follow a book 600 to 1,000 years older than the Koran - and you pick out, probably because it suits your nature, 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth'. Elsewhere in the same book it also says to love they neighbour, turn a cheek etc which seems a bit contradictory. Clearly what the west is doing now isn't working - Manchester, Paris, Nice etc are evidence of this. Is the answer to use violence, further marginalise those who are radicalisation fodder, build walls, travel bans ..................?
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Old May 27th 2017, 9:40 am
  #56  
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Smile Re: Manchester

Originally Posted by Gordon Barlow View Post
Many commentators consider Islamic terrorism in Western cities to be "blowback" from Western countries' terrorist activities in the Middle East - the murder and mutilation of peaceful villagers by British bombs, and the like.
I'm not sure that's really the case. If I might interject with some research here is a report prepared after the terrorist attacks in 2010.

"The majority of Islamist terrorists in the UK are British-born, under the age of 30, educated and likely to be employed, according to a statistical analysis of all terror plots uncovered over the past ten years.
...
The average age of perpetrators was 27, with the youngest 16 and the oldest 48. Only five women have been convicted of terror-related offences – for assisting offenders or for possessing illegal documents.
...
Almost half (48 per cent) of those convicted lived in the London area. Birmingham and West Yorkshire have the second- and third-highest numbers of convictions.

More than two thirds (69 per cent) of those convicted were born in the UK and held British passports."

It's an internal incompatibility between British social values and the values of just a very small, ideologically driven, percentage of the 4.8% of the British population that's Muslim that on the fringes is driving a small number of acts of extreme violence. The problem is how do you have an honest chat about religion which is the touchiest of touchy subjects even at the best of time much less with a religious minority many of who already feel threatened by more extreme and unhelpful elements (racists) within our own society like the BNP. The problem is however if you just accept that things continue as they where before you again continue to accept the cycle of violence will continue.
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Old May 27th 2017, 10:03 am
  #57  
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Default Re: Manchester

Originally Posted by ozzieeagle View Post
Revenge where Zulu ? Do you mean ripping off Hijabs, sending people to camps, Killing 100 of theirs for everyone one of "ours". Closing down Mosques and Schools ?

Or Maybe just Nuking somewhere ?

Revenge exactly where ?
Nope - those are all in your head. Nuking? Seriously?

The UK military is currently fighting ISIS - so many more airstrikes, SF snipers targetting more ISIS leaders (use them to kill foot soldiers too), use drones tactically etc. Any mosque or school know to be teaching radicalism must be closed immediately. Anyone on the terror watch list or teaching radicalism that can be deported, must be done so immediately - change the law if necessary. As a libertarian, I believe in a tiny government that stays out of our lives as much as possible - so I don't believe that it is in the remit of a government to tell people what they can or cannot wear. So if a woman willingly wants to oppress themselves and wear that hijab shite then that's their issue - not mine or the government's

Something that was drummed into us during training - if you don't know what to do, don't do nothing
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Old May 27th 2017, 10:15 am
  #58  
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Default Re: Manchester

Originally Posted by OzTennis View Post
So you follow a book 600 to 1,000 years older than the Koran - and you pick out, probably because it suits your nature, 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth'. Elsewhere in the same book it also says to love they neighbour, turn a cheek etc which seems a bit contradictory. Clearly what the west is doing now isn't working - Manchester, Paris, Nice etc are evidence of this. Is the answer to use violence, further marginalise those who are radicalisation fodder, build walls, travel bans ..................?
Bizarre - another poster imagining things. I never mentioned the Bible or the koran - revenge is a concept that has nothing to do with religion. If you want to bang on about the 10 commandments, that's your issue not mine

I urge you to read about Operation Wrath of God that was initiated by the great Golda Meir in order to kill the assholes responsible for Munich. It went on for well over 20 years and they got most of these dickheads - that's revenge champ. I don't believe in 'an eye foe an eye', rather the Israeli doctrine of 'if you slap me in the face, I hit you with a sledgehammer'

Doing nothing is not an option because if the UK does nothing, Manchester is part of the beginning of a very bleak future for that country
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Old May 27th 2017, 2:58 pm
  #59  
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Default Re: Manchester

Originally Posted by Amazulu View Post
Bizarre - another poster imagining things. I never mentioned the Bible or the koran - revenge is a concept that has nothing to do with religion. If you want to bang on about the 10 commandments, that's your issue not mine

I urge you to read about Operation Wrath of God that was initiated by the great Golda Meir in order to kill the assholes responsible for Munich. It went on for well over 20 years and they got most of these dickheads - that's revenge champ. I don't believe in 'an eye foe an eye', rather the Israeli doctrine of 'if you slap me in the face, I hit you with a sledgehammer'

Doing nothing is not an option because if the UK does nothing, Manchester is part of the beginning of a very bleak future for that country
My point is what the UK IS doing doesn't appear to work and I am not advocating doing nothing which you seem to think is the only alternative to your/the current approach. We have the laws which prohibit and severely punish acts of terrorism (just as we have laws to prevent drugs, speeding, theft etc but they don't stop, nay they even encourage what they are trying to prevent). As pointed out the bulk of the radicalised are British born and British citizens and something is going wrong whereby they feel alienated, marginalised, are impressionable and fodder for being recruited.

You'd probably go out and shoot the first 100 people of middle eastern (not Jewish) appearance as your 'solution' to this?

The bible/Koran comment was more directed to your fellow right winger who seems to be advocating a ban on the Koran because it's out of date or can be misinterpreted by the impressionable - hence the eye for an eye biblical reference. Of course eye for an eye isn't drastic enough for you, it has to be using a sledgehammer in response to an eye.

Last edited by OzTennis; May 27th 2017 at 3:01 pm.
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Old May 27th 2017, 5:20 pm
  #60  
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Default Re: Manchester

Originally Posted by OzTennis View Post
My point is what the UK IS doing doesn't appear to work and I am not advocating doing nothing which you seem to think is the only alternative to your/the current approach. We have the laws which prohibit and severely punish acts of terrorism (just as we have laws to prevent drugs, speeding, theft etc but they don't stop, nay they even encourage what they are trying to prevent). As pointed out the bulk of the radicalised are British born and British citizens and something is going wrong whereby they feel alienated, marginalised, are impressionable and fodder for being recruited.

You'd probably go out and shoot the first 100 people of middle eastern (not Jewish) appearance as your 'solution' to this?

The bible/Koran comment was more directed to your fellow right winger who seems to be advocating a ban on the Koran because it's out of date or can be misinterpreted by the impressionable - hence the eye for an eye biblical reference. Of course eye for an eye isn't drastic enough for you, it has to be using a sledgehammer in response to an eye.
There are common sense measures that be taken both to try to prevent radicalization and prevent terrorist acts, none of which will completely eliminate the threat from radial Islamic fundamentalists.

Schools and Mosques that preach hate and justify use of violence can be shut down for example. Forbid any funding from countries like Saudi Arabia or Iran allowed for any school, Mosque or Islamic "charity" organization. Hire more computer nerds with the objective of hacking into and doing whatever possible to shut down radical Islamic websites. Perhaps if someone determined to be on watch list, passport privileges revoked- or in reverse, if they visit countries with known terrorist camps etc, banned from re-entering country.

More police, more soldiers, perhaps requiring places that attract crowds to have minimum number of private security guards. More random checkpoints in areas police determine there are potential problems.

They perpetrators of the Manchester attacks may be British born but they don't consider themselves British.

All the excuses made for the scum who make such attacks or their sympathizers don't really make sense- I don't see Hindu immigrants as suicide bombers.

Anyway it is unacceptable to be back to "business as usual." More needs to be done. Manchester should be a wake-up call. All the clichés on television and media don't change the fact that children were blown up.
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