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Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
Originally Posted by Wol
(Post 12097447)
Then there's the Northern economy and the Club Med economy - vastly different in scale and application.
Originally Posted by Wol
(Post 12097447)
The Euro has only made things worse for several of the Southern countries but the underlying differences were obvious from the get-go well before the Euro.
The real problem is that southern countries abused the benefits that adopting the Euro brought them. Instead of being more fiscally sound, with lower debt costs to ease the burden, those nations chose to use their membership to the Euro club to become completely irresponsible when it came to debt and spending (simply because they could suddenly do so much more). So whereas they might be blaming the Euro, the real problem is their populist political scene and the massive over-spending that occurred simply for political gain. |
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
Originally Posted by astera
(Post 12100303)
"Work avoidance schemes" are certainly a way of life in the south, there's no doubt about it. :)
The Euro isn't the problem - in fact it's a huge step forward for the continent, for free (and easier) trade within the Union. For people it's a god-send as it acts like a protective umbrella over their funds, so that if something goes wrong then they don't end up like Iceland's resident. The real problem is that southern countries abused the benefits that adopting the Euro brought them. Instead of being more fiscally sound, with lower debt costs to ease the burden, those nations chose to use their membership to the Euro club to become completely irresponsible when it came to debt and spending (simply because they could suddenly do so much more). So whereas they might be blaming the Euro, the real problem is their populist political scene and the massive over-spending that occurred simply for political gain. |
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
Originally Posted by Beoz
(Post 12100453)
And for that reason it will be wonderful watching Britian move forward without the baggage.
"The baggage" is from outside the EU when it comes to the economy and pumping money into the system. The "outsiders" are working the least and taking the most out of the system when compared to our EU friends. And now we have May on her knees begging to get a trade deal with India... and they're telling her to increase immigration from India in return. Just curious if that is the will of the people? :) |
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
Originally Posted by astera
(Post 12100303)
The Euro isn't the problem - in fact it's a huge step forward for the continent
The euro is a straight jacket - rigidly fixing together countries with wildly varying economies. It's like shackling Usain Bolt and Gina Rinehart together and trying to get them to run a race. Neither is going to be happy, or do the best they can. Sure you can set it up as a trading currency, but making it replace nation currencies was always the daftest, most ideologically borne move that the have yet made - and guaranteed to screw things up (as it has done). |
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
Originally Posted by astera
(Post 12100585)
You've completely missed the point.
"The baggage" is from outside the EU when it comes to the economy and pumping money into the system. The "outsiders" are working the least and taking the most out of the system when compared to our EU friends. And now we have May on her knees begging to get a trade deal with India... and they're telling her to increase immigration from India in return. Just curious if that is the will of the people? :) In this case I do agree with part of your point. The EU has become a basket case care of the southern invites. Britain first, Holland second, who's next? |
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
Originally Posted by GarryP
(Post 12100605)
Sorry, but nope.
The euro is a straight jacket - rigidly fixing together countries with wildly varying economies. It's like shackling Usain Bolt and Gina Rinehart together and trying to get them to run a race. Neither is going to be happy, or do the best they can. Sure you can set it up as a trading currency, but making it replace nation currencies was always the daftest, most ideologically borne move that the have yet made - and guaranteed to screw things up (as it has done). |
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
Originally Posted by Beoz
(Post 12100633)
Holland second
A great nation - responsible for much of what drove Western Europe forward over the last 400 years - now cowed and bent by multiculturalism and PC'ness |
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
Originally Posted by Amazulu
(Post 12100761)
My mate Geert Wilders - a man who talks a whole lot of sense - is on the rise
A great nation - responsible for much of what drove Western Europe forward over the last 400 years - now cowed and bent by multiculturalism and PC'ness |
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
Originally Posted by astera
(Post 12100303)
"Work avoidance schemes" are certainly a way of life in the south, there's no doubt about it. :)
The Euro isn't the problem - in fact it's a huge step forward for the continent, for free (and easier) trade within the Union. For people it's a god-send as it acts like a protective umbrella over their funds, so that if something goes wrong then they don't end up like Iceland's resident. The real problem is that southern countries abused the benefits that adopting the Euro brought them. Instead of being more fiscally sound, with lower debt costs to ease the burden, those nations chose to use their membership to the Euro club to become completely irresponsible when it came to debt and spending (simply because they could suddenly do so much more). So whereas they might be blaming the Euro, the real problem is their populist political scene and the massive over-spending that occurred simply for political gain. |
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
Originally Posted by GarryP
(Post 12100605)
The euro is a straight jacket - rigidly fixing together countries with wildly varying economies.
Sure you can set it up as a trading currency, but making it replace nation currencies was always the daftest, most ideologically borne move that the have yet made - and guaranteed to screw things up (as it has done). I think it's worked very well so far. Look at all the nay-sayers who thought it would no longer be around today and yet the currency is here to stay. The only problems that have arisen are due to over-spending by southern politicians who really don't care about the future of their countries, but only look at the here and now of their own political self-interest. Saying the Euro is bad is like saying that a credit card is bad because Billy down the road went mental, got into massive debt, and needed a bailout by his older brother to prevent his house from being taken. Was it the credit card that was bad or is Billy to blame? :) |
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
Originally Posted by astera
(Post 12101239)
The only problems that have arisen are due to over-spending by southern politicians who really don't care about the future of their countries, but only look at the here and now of their own political self-interest.
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Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
Originally Posted by astera
(Post 12101239)
Well, we are one, big economic bloc and it would be insane to go back to the old way where trade was conducted in a myriad currencies and affected by constant fluctuations.
I think it's worked very well so far. Look at all the nay-sayers who thought it would no longer be around today and yet the currency is here to stay. The only problems that have arisen are due to over-spending by southern politicians who really don't care about the future of their countries, but only look at the here and now of their own political self-interest. Saying the Euro is bad is like saying that a credit card is bad because Billy down the road went mental, got into massive debt, and needed a bailout by his older brother to prevent his house from being taken. Was it the credit card that was bad or is Billy to blame? :) The answer of course is that the credit card issuer is to blame, for not doing due diligence. A direct similarity with the EU leaders - they wanted to move even further towards full federalism (common currency being one requirement, army another) and were ready to sacrifice all economic principles to do so. The credit card issuer is likewise only interested in increasing the number of people holding their card - the ability to pay comes second when bonuses are on the horizon. |
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
I hope we do go towards an ever-closer-union as I do not see a strong Europe if everything is scattered.
Of course Russia will be spending money and resources to split-up and divide Europe as that is in their interests. There's a good quote from the link in the Trump thread from Nige: "The EU is also a major force in suppressing Putin’s military ambitions. European sanctions on Russia really hit the economy, and helped temper Russia’s attacks on Ukraine (there is a reason bad guys always want a weaker European Union)." As for the US, it used to be comprised of various social groups, speaking different languages depending on the region, and yet they didn't form a number of different countries. Looking at today's economic side, the difference between many states is huge, more so than between EU member states. Why doesn't the US have different currencies due to this? Let's here an answer in economic terms instead of the usual cop-out reply of "they're a single country" as that doesn't cover economics at all. Here in the UK, why doesn't Scotland have a different currency, or Wales? I mean Scotland can produce its own notes and does so, but why then is the currency artificially pegged (surely against the natural rules of economics?) instead of being its own, separate currency? |
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
Originally Posted by astera
(Post 12102172)
I hope we do go towards an ever-closer-union as I do not see a strong Europe if everything is scattered.
Of course Russia will be spending money and resources to split-up and divide Europe as that is in their interests. There's a good quote from the link in the Trump thread from Nige: "The EU is also a major force in suppressing Putin’s military ambitions. European sanctions on Russia really hit the economy, and helped temper Russia’s attacks on Ukraine (there is a reason bad guys always want a weaker European Union)." As for the US, it used to be comprised of various social groups, speaking different languages depending on the region, and yet they didn't form a number of different countries. Looking at today's economic side, the difference between many states is huge, more so than between EU member states. Why doesn't the US have different currencies due to this? Let's here an answer in economic terms instead of the usual cop-out reply of "they're a single country" as that doesn't cover economics at all. Here in the UK, why doesn't Scotland have a different currency, or Wales? I mean Scotland can produce its own notes and does so, but why then is the currency artificially pegged (surely against the natural rules of economics?) instead of being its own, separate currency? Scottish banks produce their own notes (the Bank of England was founded by Paterson a Scot but that's another issue) which are legal tender in the UK but they are still GBP's. Check out 9 options for Scotland: https://www.commonspace.scot/article...out-new-report |
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
Interesting read, thanks.
I would probably look at options #2 (or #7) as being the most logical should Scotland gain independence from the great ball & chain and wish to remain in the EU. It would probably be obliged to take route #7 eventually, but in the meantime I would think that #2 makes more sense and would be easier than pegging a currency like the Swiss tried to do in recent times. Plus trade wouldn't be constrained as it would still be the same currency and not a different one, which even fixed 1:1 would still see "conversions" by banks eager to get their cut (not to mention lack of acceptance of notes outside Scotland). We certainly live in interesting times. :) |
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