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Australian Work Ethic

Australian Work Ethic

Old Nov 11th 2012, 9:02 pm
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Default Re: Australian Work Ethic

I used to work for an oil major both in Aus and UK.

We did longer hours in UK, some of which was the demands of the business unit and some was just trying to look good.

I then joined another business based in London, which was small but booming (50 to 70 people in a year) and everyone - including the MD- left between 5-5.10. They believed you should be able to do your work in the allocated hours.


I am back in Melbourne job hunting and met a former colleague about roles in his company- a different oil major. He said there no one works the stupid hours we used to- people are expected to manage their time better.

So in a nutshell- horses for courses. I think the attitude of finishing in allotted hours is a healthy approach! I loved finishing at 5 pm in London.
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Old Nov 11th 2012, 9:06 pm
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Default Re: Australian Work Ethic

Originally Posted by Pomster
So in a nutshell- horses for courses. I think the attitude of finishing in allotted hours is a healthy approach! I loved finishing at 5 pm in London.
Definitely more healthy! I am sure this depends on the sector. I am in the financial sector but with an IT focus - many projects are team effort and contingent on everyone doing quality work and getting things done at deadline. An example: If a guy leaves at 5 when he could have finished debugging his code at 510, then calls in sick the next day, other people have to pick up the slack, figure out the code, correct the issue, etc etc. Ive noticed a lot of this sort of thing, where just a few extra minutes would have made a difference. Perhaps the best approach is somewhere in the middle: not leaving at 5 like you are still in primary school running to a bus, but not working crazy hours either. I can't complain about all the free time though.
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Old Nov 11th 2012, 9:15 pm
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Default Re: Australian Work Ethic

Originally Posted by rld1177
Thanks, very useful to understand your perspective better.

It is a nice outlook really - since I've been here I've found I have more free time to work on business ideas and spend more time with my partner, so I definitely love the work life balance? In the US and UK to an extent I think the idea is if you are on a salary you work the hours needed to do a good job - if you are an hourly worker, then you certainly don't work extra time. It sounds like many here view salary work in a similar way, makes sense if that is the culture and it is really helpful to understand it better. I do, however, still think working a few minutes extra once in a while to do a quality job is a good thing though - it sounds like do when appropriate which is the key thing. Cheers
Personally I work in IT and I think you need to be careful extrapolating too much from limited experience. It's just going to get you into trouble when you change companies and find the total opposite culture. I have also worked in the UK and know it varies absolutely there as well.
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Old Nov 11th 2012, 10:21 pm
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Default Re: Australian Work Ethic

In my company there are a mixed bag of work ethics, as is the case in many companies, I'm sure.

My immediate boss, and her boss, have the expectation that at busy times it may be necessary for people to work a little later or come in a little earlier, if there is work to be done. The work I do revolves around project cycles and it can be very busy or very quiet. I am quite happy with this expectation because they equally have no expectation that I will sit around twiddling my thumbs and waiting for it to hit 5 if I have no work to do, they don't care if I nip off at 4.45 occasionally. They also trust us to come in late/leave early for doctors' appointments etc without worrying about 'making the time up'. Basically, as long as the work gets done, they're happy. I think that is fair and consquently have no issues staying until 6 or 7 very occasionally - this would be very unusual - although I do get in earlier than I'm required to every day, out of personal choice (it's convenient for transport reasons).

My department is also very relaxed about people grabbing coffees with colleagues etc during the day or just for a screen break etc - we have a coffee shop directly over the road as well as well equipped kitchens.

I work in a not for profit and there are people who have been here for longer than I've been alive. Some of them are absolutely wedded to the idea of morning and afternoon tea and down tools at 10.30 and 3 every day, for about half an hour. These are also the people who religiously clock off at 5. I've got no patience with them, the idea that morning and afternoon tea is some kind of entitlement is laughable to me and given that the employer plays fair with the rest of us, I don't see why they are so obsessed with leaving at 5 every day. Needless to say they also want to make appointments in work hours etc because everyone else does and that really winds me up.

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Old Nov 11th 2012, 10:27 pm
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Default Re: Australian Work Ethic

Originally Posted by Pomster
So in a nutshell- horses for courses. I think the attitude of finishing in allotted hours is a healthy approach! I loved finishing at 5 pm in London.
In my profession in my sector, the concept of "allotted hours" doesn't really exist. Didn't in London and doesn't here. Indeed my current company are quite definite that our positions are "task based" not "time based". i.e. employees need to work whatever hours the job requires, of course if people were working silly hours then management need to address that.

I know that the people that leave on the dot at 5pm are not better at managing their time, they are idle or don't care about their career or doing a good job. That was not a general comment, that was a specific relating to the people that I have observed in my current workplace.
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Old Nov 11th 2012, 10:36 pm
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Default Re: Australian Work Ethic

Originally Posted by Almo
Needless to say they also want to make appointments in work hours etc because everyone else does and that really winds me up.
One other observation I made was the idea that a dental appointment is taken as a sick day, not something you do during your lunch break or after work or on a weekend. I found that ridiculous but I shouldn't have been surprised as they get sick days like paid leave, just not as many days.
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Old Nov 11th 2012, 10:44 pm
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Thumbs up Re: Australian Work Ethic

Originally Posted by rld1177
Thanks, very useful to understand your perspective better.

It is a nice outlook really - since I've been here I've found I have more free time to work on business ideas and spend more time with my partner, so I definitely love the work life balance? In the US and UK to an extent I think the idea is if you are on a salary you work the hours needed to do a good job - if you are an hourly worker, then you certainly don't work extra time. It sounds like many here view salary work in a similar way, makes sense if that is the culture and it is really helpful to understand it better. I do, however, still think working a few minutes extra once in a while to do a quality job is a good thing though - it sounds like do when appropriate which is the key thing. Cheers
I've worked as a salaried employee and I've worked for an hourly wage, but my ethos has never changed. Work is a means to an end. It's not what I live for.

In some jobs I found that everyone was expected to finish their work by the end of the day (or the end of the week, depending on the nature of the tasks). If you had anything left over by the weekend it was seen as an indication of poor time management.

Obviously this can vary across industries, and some employers don't allow employee access to company buildings outside office hours anyway, so unpaid overtime is not even possible.

I will add that I have never known any employer to work for free. Never. If he's putting in extra hours it's because someone's giving him money. He's either negotiated paid overtime with higher management or he's billing the client directly. He might expect unpaid overtime from others, but he knows it's a mug's game and you won't find him staying back for nothing.

The best boss is one who never asks you to do anything he wouldn't do himself.
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Old Nov 11th 2012, 10:54 pm
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Default Re: Australian Work Ethic

Two different experiences when we worked in London; my wife says that she worked in quite “normal” hours compared to here in Australia as even though she is a contractor paid by hour they expect her to stay longer when is work to be finished (and expressly not willing to pay the extra hours).

My experience in London was totally different; I remember myself working until 3:00am (no extra hours) and even staying in hotels in winter (you know, when the snow stops the transport) no extra payment, no appreciation, and a long face waiting for me if I get work next day 30 min late. Here in Australia I work long hours some times helping my boss with strategic matters (again, lots of experience and wisdom - no qualifications), but I have to say that he is quite flexible if I ask for time for my MBA (exam days, friday lectures, etc)

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Old Nov 12th 2012, 12:24 am
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Default Re: Australian Work Ethic

If your boss expects you to work a large amount of unpaid overtime then
  1. He is not prepared to pay market rate for the work, or
  2. You are below average with your work rate, or
  3. He is taking advantage of you to avoid employing the number of people the work requires.

A contract is a contract. You contract to work at your best rate for (on average) a set number of hours a week and he contracts to pay you a set amount of money each month/fortnight. If he demands more hours without paying more money then you have the option of putting up with it or moving to a more reasonable employer.

Personally, I'm on a casual contract - I work the hours I want and get paid solely for those hours, no sick pay, holiday pay, etc. But every hour worked is paid (at a flat rate, but in my case a very good one!).
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Old Nov 12th 2012, 12:28 am
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Default Re: Australian Work Ethic

I have never worked one second for which I have not been paid

Unpaid work is a mugs game
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Old Nov 12th 2012, 12:49 am
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Default Re: Australian Work Ethic

Originally Posted by KJCherokee
If your boss expects you to work a large amount of unpaid overtime then
  1. He is not prepared to pay market rate for the work, or
  2. You are below average with your work rate, or
  3. He is taking advantage of you to avoid employing the number of people the work requires.

A contract is a contract. You contract to work at your best rate for (on average) a set number of hours a week and he contracts to pay you a set amount of money each month/fortnight. If he demands more hours without paying more money then you have the option of putting up with it or moving to a more reasonable employer.
As a permie IT consultant my contract has always stated that I will work hours 'as required' - more than one employer. My current employer points out that although we officially work x (38?) hours a week we are paid well in excess of the modern award rate for 'Professional Employees' working 40 hours week...therefore any overtime is already frontloaded into our salary, whether we do any or not. It's a reasonable enough arrangement. While at times people will be expected to work well in excess of a 40 hour week at other times they will not be pushed. The only time there might be some compensation might be for giving up a whole day on the weekend...and then TOIL would be the most likely arrangement.

In my company it really varies by office - here in Melbourne many people are doing just the 8.30-5.30, but I am aware that people in the Brisbane office are doing some crazy hours - part of that being their personal choice to do so.

Personally I find it almost exactly the same as working in similar organisations in the UK.
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Old Nov 12th 2012, 1:04 am
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Default Re: Australian Work Ethic

Originally Posted by KJCherokee
If your boss expects you to work a large amount of unpaid overtime then
  1. He is not prepared to pay market rate for the work, or
  2. You are below average with your work rate, or
  3. He is taking advantage of you to avoid employing the number of people the work requires.

A contract is a contract. You contract to work at your best rate for (on average) a set number of hours a week and he contracts to pay you a set amount of money each month/fortnight. If he demands more hours without paying more money then you have the option of putting up with it or moving to a more reasonable employer.

Personally, I'm on a casual contract - I work the hours I want and get paid solely for those hours, no sick pay, holiday pay, etc. But every hour worked is paid (at a flat rate, but in my case a very good one!).
It just doesn't work like that for many people. Many people have the "hours as required" clause in their contract as mentioned by bcworld. I have been in the workforce for 20 years now and have never seen it work any other way.
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Old Nov 12th 2012, 1:14 am
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Default Re: Australian Work Ethic

Originally Posted by Bermudashorts
It just doesn't work like that for many people. Many people have the "hours as required" clause in their contract as mentioned by bcworld. I have been in the workforce for 20 years now and have never seen it work any other way.
I've a hunch they were trying to instill this culture at Apost, re our clean up and set up times and clear down at the end of the day.... as it doesn't seem to be included in the way the work is measured. Comes down to our facility not being big enough for the 3 main purposes it is used for and having totally different set ups for each one.

Luckily the local powers that be argued the toss re their figures and tell them we dont start our measurable duties until at least an hour after we start and 30 mins before we finish..... Plus the bulk of our work (70pct plus) comes in from Dandenong at 5.30 am... 2 hours before finish. Lets just say it's caused 2 facility managers to resign under extreme stress conditions from our facility. Another 1.5 hour early start tonight is necessary ... plus we will be there 1.5 hours at least after scheduled finish time.

Me thinks Ahmed Fahour is likely to fail at post Kicked to death by the reality of the shop floor. He is losing all his experienced managers and the new ones are totally lost. Stuffed by the safety issues of seperate bundle delivery, which was abandoned (outside sorting by posties) and the spin off side effects that caused..

Try selling us Ahmed and see what happens... we dare you.. DHL have to use Apost now as no private enterprise can cope with their own loads in Aus.







Interesting power plays at our place. .

Post anything from overseas via DHL and 33 pct will end up delivered by Aus post LOL !!

Inside info.... They tried using cheap overseas labour... New Indians to this country, Turned out when they employed one, they would get out into the feild and have family members help them, this resulted in Kids of 11/12/13 years old delivering registered mail including passports. They abandoned the cheap labour method fairly pronto after that fiasco. That why in Melbourne recently we saw a whole heap of Indian people delivering mail and then suddenly stop. They came from an agency and Apost will no longer use Agency employees.

Last edited by ozzieeagle; Nov 12th 2012 at 1:49 am.
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Old Nov 12th 2012, 3:01 am
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Default Re: Australian Work Ethic

The main point I got from bcworld's post is that they get paid above average salaries to account for the extra hours worked - what he didn't say was how many hours he works on average and how that translates to an hourly rate, and whether that hourly rate is above or below a reasonable norm.

Maybe my age has something to do with my attitude towards this. When I was younger I worked on overseas construction sites - 12 weeks on, 2 weeks off, and roughly 12 hour days whilst on the job. Got paid well, enough to buy a house over the time I worked like that so currently no mortgage, but it did nothing for my relationship with my wife. Currently I get to work at 7am and leave around 4pm and no-one tries to get me to do more than I feel like - possibly (probably) because I have the knowledge and experience that the company would find it hard to replace if I left. Yes, I work longer when it's necessary, but I get paid for it.

Having said all that, I still think that anyone who is expected to work more than 40-45 hours a week on a regular basis without getting paid for it should seriously think about why they do it. Is it to gain experience and promotion? Is it because you fear being sacked if you don't? Is it because you would rather be at work than at home? Or is it like with bcworld, that you are paid over the odds to compensate for the overtime?

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Old Nov 12th 2012, 3:20 am
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Default Re: Australian Work Ethic

[QUOTE=KJCherokee;10377614
Having said all that, I still think that anyone who is expected to work more than 40-45 hours a week on a regular basis without getting paid for it should seriously think about why they do it. Is it to gain experience and promotion? Is it because you fear being sacked if you don't? Is it because you would rather be at work than at home? Or is it like with bcworld, that you are paid over the odds to compensate for the overtime?[/QUOTE]

For some it may well be they enjoy their work. I was a programmer for years and would have never left at 5 if I was near figuring out a problem, I enjoyed the work and having a tangible product that 'did something' at the end of the day. Most other software developers are similar, they want to do a good job because they also often actually enjoy what they do. It is fairly sad that most people seem to be in jobs where it is more about counting down the hours, but it is the nature of most careers I guess.

For some I think it is more basic though: a pride in the quality of your work that isn't directly related to pay. Years ago before university when I worked retail, I can remember guys who worked harder cleaning floors, bathrooms etc etc not because they had to but because for some reason they had a good work ethic. Part of that is definitely cultural - in the US (and there are a LOT of negatives to this) many people are brought up with two themes: the Protestant work ethic and the idea that the quality of your work reflects on your character. Laughable to many I am sure, but I think maybe that explains some of the differences. The idea there of leaving the office at 5 to stuff your co-workers that work another 1/2 hour on a regular basis - well, most would feel to guilty to do that. Not here As someone else said here though, probably it is better to kick the feet up, leave at 5, and have a beer vs trying to change a culture which is why I'd rather just understand the thinking and adapt to it.
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