Australian Work Ethic
Nov 10th 2012, 10:01 pm
#16
Mostly Harmless
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Semi-rural wonderworld, Brisbane
Posts: 15,109
Re: Australian Work Ethic
Every single person I work with, doesn't know how long their day will be when they arrive at work. They all do OT as the work demands and we've rarely seen less than a 12 hour day for months now. It's almost like a bonus when we only get 2 hours OT and can get home relatively early.
In fact some of us are doing 6 days a week..... I baulked at that one. It's Football season for xsakes.
Dreading Xmas.
In fact some of us are doing 6 days a week..... I baulked at that one. It's Football season for xsakes.
Dreading Xmas.
It's like a holiday camp but with monitors.
Free fruit too, bananarama!
The commute turns it into a 12 hour day mind ... I just use this to oggle the women in short skirts.
It's a full life.
Nov 10th 2012, 10:05 pm
#17
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,039
Re: Australian Work Ethic
you back working in the city again?
Nov 10th 2012, 10:14 pm
#18
Mostly Harmless
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Semi-rural wonderworld, Brisbane
Posts: 15,109
Nov 10th 2012, 10:17 pm
#19
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,526
Re: Australian Work Ethic
I work for a consulting engineering company in oil and gas, and the only way we can compete on the international stage is to sell quality, smarts and experience as India and other similar countries can undercut us on man hour rates every time. So it is in our interests to ensure that our staff get adequate time off and are not working excessive hours - most work 40-45 hrs a week and only go over that when a deadline needs more input to be achieved. That way we ensure that our engineers get a good balance between work and family/social life and are never too tired to be at the top of their game.
Ozzieeagle, how long do you think you can work 12 hour days before performance and productivity decline drastically and people start making expensive mistakes?
Ozzieeagle, how long do you think you can work 12 hour days before performance and productivity decline drastically and people start making expensive mistakes?
There are standards that have to be met and they are still being met. Apost are refusing to take on new staff, they haven't employed anyone new at our facility for almost 10months now. In that time around 15 people out of 250 have left. Apparently we are getting some new starters in two weeks. That'll only alieviate the Xmas upturn though.
The facility manager has had enough though and put in his resignation, thats 2 gone in one year. .
Nov 10th 2012, 10:47 pm
#20
Banned
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,300
Re: Australian Work Ethic
I've been in Melbourne since March, working for one of the big 4 banks.
I'd be very curious to hear about others experiences regarding the Australian work ethic. I spent many years in London and in New York, and I continue to be shocked with what I experience here.
I had my annual performance review recently and for my 'negatives' I was told I 'work too hard' and that it 'looks bad to finish work on weekends'. In almost 9 months, I've probably worked a net of 20 hours total over the weekend and work in the office to 6 or 630 rarely and only then to meet a deadline. In the USA or even the UK, my work effort here in terms of hours worked would be viewed as utterly lazy. I regularly witness people leave at 5 pm as if a school bell went off (despite deadlines), leaving work unfinished, or presenting something to senior executives that, frankly, if you tried in New York or London you'd likely be shown the door or given a personal development plan.
There also seems to be a strange sense of pride in NOT having qualifications - I've heard many say things like 'I wouldn't waste my time on an MBA' or 'I do compliance and never needed to study law formally' etc etc. Most of the ex-pats I work with have impressive credentials so perhaps some of this is just trying to justify not having them by some of the locals, but again I find this attitude strange.
The most common expression I hear weekly is 'I am not putting my hand up for that' and the amount of blaming others vs admitting you screwed up is unreal. I have been involved in some projects that would have been completed in two weeks in London or New York that are still going on, never progressing past a powerpoint (which is then reworked) presentation since no one will take accountability to actually deliver something.
Is this typical, or did I just land at an unusual bank or department? Something just feels a bit off to be working the least hours in my life, and making by far the most money, while being surrounded by people that seem to take no pride whatsoever in their professionalism or quality of their work.
*Note: Australia itself is great, I love Melbourne and all there is to do here, this is just a question about the Australia work ethic.
I'd be very curious to hear about others experiences regarding the Australian work ethic. I spent many years in London and in New York, and I continue to be shocked with what I experience here.
I had my annual performance review recently and for my 'negatives' I was told I 'work too hard' and that it 'looks bad to finish work on weekends'. In almost 9 months, I've probably worked a net of 20 hours total over the weekend and work in the office to 6 or 630 rarely and only then to meet a deadline. In the USA or even the UK, my work effort here in terms of hours worked would be viewed as utterly lazy. I regularly witness people leave at 5 pm as if a school bell went off (despite deadlines), leaving work unfinished, or presenting something to senior executives that, frankly, if you tried in New York or London you'd likely be shown the door or given a personal development plan.
There also seems to be a strange sense of pride in NOT having qualifications - I've heard many say things like 'I wouldn't waste my time on an MBA' or 'I do compliance and never needed to study law formally' etc etc. Most of the ex-pats I work with have impressive credentials so perhaps some of this is just trying to justify not having them by some of the locals, but again I find this attitude strange.
The most common expression I hear weekly is 'I am not putting my hand up for that' and the amount of blaming others vs admitting you screwed up is unreal. I have been involved in some projects that would have been completed in two weeks in London or New York that are still going on, never progressing past a powerpoint (which is then reworked) presentation since no one will take accountability to actually deliver something.
Is this typical, or did I just land at an unusual bank or department? Something just feels a bit off to be working the least hours in my life, and making by far the most money, while being surrounded by people that seem to take no pride whatsoever in their professionalism or quality of their work.
*Note: Australia itself is great, I love Melbourne and all there is to do here, this is just a question about the Australia work ethic.
Last edited by Zen10; Nov 10th 2012 at 10:49 pm.
Nov 10th 2012, 11:21 pm
#21
Just Joined
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Beenliegh, Queensland
Posts: 27
Re: Australian Work Ethic
I've been here for 2 years and am an electrician, i work for a Macadonian guy who moved to NZ late 90s then got into Oz mid 2000s.
I am worked like a dog told to sell people more stuff they call me the minute i am supposed to be at an appointment, to check i am there. I live in fear of being a couple of minutes late. Last week i missed my lunch break to make it back to the office for 1st aid course, when i put no lunch on my time sheet i was told "well you ate when the 1st aid guy was here" I have to charge $75 an hr plus materials but i am paid $28...
The reason i stick at this sh*t is i have a south australian licence and all the jobs here demand a Qld one. I need this guy to keep signing my log book ( now complete) so i can hopefully get a qld licence.
So i work hard in this stupid heat/ humidity much much harder than i did in blighty. But outside work i can afford to do so much more.
I stay here because i dont want to have to divorce my aussie wife, she did 8 yrs in blighty.
I am worked like a dog told to sell people more stuff they call me the minute i am supposed to be at an appointment, to check i am there. I live in fear of being a couple of minutes late. Last week i missed my lunch break to make it back to the office for 1st aid course, when i put no lunch on my time sheet i was told "well you ate when the 1st aid guy was here" I have to charge $75 an hr plus materials but i am paid $28...
The reason i stick at this sh*t is i have a south australian licence and all the jobs here demand a Qld one. I need this guy to keep signing my log book ( now complete) so i can hopefully get a qld licence.
So i work hard in this stupid heat/ humidity much much harder than i did in blighty. But outside work i can afford to do so much more.
I stay here because i dont want to have to divorce my aussie wife, she did 8 yrs in blighty.
Nov 11th 2012, 12:08 am
#22
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 23,400
Re: Australian Work Ethic
Nov 11th 2012, 1:16 am
#23
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Sep 2005
Location: Somewhere South... Not Telling YOU
Posts: 10,959
Nov 11th 2012, 1:57 am
#24
Forum Regular
Joined: Dec 2010
Location: Sydney
Posts: 187
Re: Australian Work Ethic
In my experience, in my floor(2nd) it's normal seeing the marketing and sales people working long hours and weekends. The company doesn't encourage employees extra work so it's up to you. Also we work Fridays until 1:30. Having said that, we work under such amount of pressure all the time that I really think that they are sweezing us until take the last penny they are paying for (fair enough). On the other hand, If you go down to the 1st floor (admin) at 5 o clock you are not going to find a soul around.
Regarding qualifications, Higher positions are occupied for mature individuals (some wihout formal qualifications) who have worked hard to succeed in their companies so they automatically are going to do their best not to leave anybody threat (or intimidate) them with formal qualifications or intellectual crap nor to work on preparing the new generation. Also, to me Australia is more or less 10 years behind the rest of the world (including some developing countries); if you go 10 years back a MBA was a degree for few selected pretentious people with the money to pay for it and now in USA and the UK to have an MBA is a must even for junior positions (including my headquarter in US) so the MBA days will come to Australia when the belt get tighter. I wouldn't relate the MBA with the nationality because I'm one of the few non Australian students in my MBA course.
Finally, I would agree with some of your comments but in essence, I see my company more like a sales branch that has to pump products in the market than a proper corporate global office. Also, having worked in the UK and USA the most important difference is the extremely hierarchical and reactive culture at the point of even thinking strategically or critically can be almost regarded as a direct threat (going back to the qualifications) to the big fishes.
Regarding qualifications, Higher positions are occupied for mature individuals (some wihout formal qualifications) who have worked hard to succeed in their companies so they automatically are going to do their best not to leave anybody threat (or intimidate) them with formal qualifications or intellectual crap nor to work on preparing the new generation. Also, to me Australia is more or less 10 years behind the rest of the world (including some developing countries); if you go 10 years back a MBA was a degree for few selected pretentious people with the money to pay for it and now in USA and the UK to have an MBA is a must even for junior positions (including my headquarter in US) so the MBA days will come to Australia when the belt get tighter. I wouldn't relate the MBA with the nationality because I'm one of the few non Australian students in my MBA course.
Finally, I would agree with some of your comments but in essence, I see my company more like a sales branch that has to pump products in the market than a proper corporate global office. Also, having worked in the UK and USA the most important difference is the extremely hierarchical and reactive culture at the point of even thinking strategically or critically can be almost regarded as a direct threat (going back to the qualifications) to the big fishes.
Last edited by MAR001; Nov 11th 2012 at 2:03 am.
Nov 11th 2012, 2:18 am
#26
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 992
Re: Australian Work Ethic
I used to be like the OP, then I caught myself on. Its Australia where any excuse is good enough to shoot home early etc, its a relaxed lifestyle why waste time complaining if you cant beat them join 'em.
Nov 11th 2012, 4:01 am
#27
Forum Regular
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 131
Re: Australian Work Ethic
[QUOTE=Bermudashorts;10376239
I am an accountant in financial services, as I was in London for a long time and many people here would not survive five minutes in the London market.[/QUOTE]
This is exactly my point. Many here are on excellent salaries - top 5% in Australia - yet can't be bothered to work a bit later at times to get the job done right. The impact is the people willing to do so tend to get dumped on with more work, so I suppose this attitude makes sense. I've also seen a number of people hammered in performance reviews because they did take accountability while those that take off at 5 or say 'I can't figure it out, give it to the intern' seem to do pretty well since they never took accountability to begin with.
The environment reminds me of the USA during the .com boom, but even then people worked decent hours and did good professional work despite have 5 or 6 job options per week (I was working in pure tech work at the time), so some of it must simply be cultural.
I am an accountant in financial services, as I was in London for a long time and many people here would not survive five minutes in the London market.[/QUOTE]
This is exactly my point. Many here are on excellent salaries - top 5% in Australia - yet can't be bothered to work a bit later at times to get the job done right. The impact is the people willing to do so tend to get dumped on with more work, so I suppose this attitude makes sense. I've also seen a number of people hammered in performance reviews because they did take accountability while those that take off at 5 or say 'I can't figure it out, give it to the intern' seem to do pretty well since they never took accountability to begin with.
The environment reminds me of the USA during the .com boom, but even then people worked decent hours and did good professional work despite have 5 or 6 job options per week (I was working in pure tech work at the time), so some of it must simply be cultural.
Nov 11th 2012, 4:08 am
#28
Forum Regular
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 131
Re: Australian Work Ethic
[QUOTE=MAR001;10376413
Regarding qualifications, Higher positions are occupied for mature individuals (some wihout formal qualifications) who have worked hard to succeed in their companies so they automatically are going to do their best not to leave anybody threat (or intimidate) them with formal qualifications or intellectual crap nor to work on preparing the new generation. Also, to me Australia is more or less 10 years behind the rest of the world (including some developing countries); if you go 10 years back a MBA was a degree for few selected pretentious people with the money to pay for it and now in USA and the UK to have an MBA is a must even for junior positions (including my headquarter in US) so the MBA days will come to Australia when the belt get tighter. I wouldn't relate the MBA with the nationality because I'm one of the few non Australian students in my MBA course.
[/QUOTE]
Good points, the MBA was an example, I see similar comments re law degrees (I happen to have both - can't win!) This isn't by the way with people bragging about their qualifications (most of the ex-pats here have them, many of the Aussie's seem not to for reasons likely being those that you outline) but rather more senior people making throw away comments about how credentials or for that matter self improvement is not worth it. I know of a fairly senior person offered an executive MBA by the company - fully paid - that said no because she 'can't imagine what she could learn' - same goes for a few in compliance that from what I can tell don't even know the basics of Common law but seem to feel they are effective.
Perhaps some of it is just insecurity - I worked with senior execs in New York and London with and without qualifications and none seemed threatened by junior people - if anything they developed them and had a clear development plan. Case and point, I made many presentations to by previous company's risk board in London over a 4 year period even though it was really for our COO to do - he let others present to develop us. Same for New York. At my current bank, I have yet to see one 'Head of' allow a senior manager to present anything to executives - prepare powerpoint packs and argue over fonts, yes, but get facetime or exposure to senior execs - heck no. Longer term I find it odd - in New York for example the view was always support your team, grow them, and as you get promoted hopefully so will they. My experience here so far is to watch your back.
Regarding qualifications, Higher positions are occupied for mature individuals (some wihout formal qualifications) who have worked hard to succeed in their companies so they automatically are going to do their best not to leave anybody threat (or intimidate) them with formal qualifications or intellectual crap nor to work on preparing the new generation. Also, to me Australia is more or less 10 years behind the rest of the world (including some developing countries); if you go 10 years back a MBA was a degree for few selected pretentious people with the money to pay for it and now in USA and the UK to have an MBA is a must even for junior positions (including my headquarter in US) so the MBA days will come to Australia when the belt get tighter. I wouldn't relate the MBA with the nationality because I'm one of the few non Australian students in my MBA course.
[/QUOTE]
Good points, the MBA was an example, I see similar comments re law degrees (I happen to have both - can't win!) This isn't by the way with people bragging about their qualifications (most of the ex-pats here have them, many of the Aussie's seem not to for reasons likely being those that you outline) but rather more senior people making throw away comments about how credentials or for that matter self improvement is not worth it. I know of a fairly senior person offered an executive MBA by the company - fully paid - that said no because she 'can't imagine what she could learn' - same goes for a few in compliance that from what I can tell don't even know the basics of Common law but seem to feel they are effective.
Perhaps some of it is just insecurity - I worked with senior execs in New York and London with and without qualifications and none seemed threatened by junior people - if anything they developed them and had a clear development plan. Case and point, I made many presentations to by previous company's risk board in London over a 4 year period even though it was really for our COO to do - he let others present to develop us. Same for New York. At my current bank, I have yet to see one 'Head of' allow a senior manager to present anything to executives - prepare powerpoint packs and argue over fonts, yes, but get facetime or exposure to senior execs - heck no. Longer term I find it odd - in New York for example the view was always support your team, grow them, and as you get promoted hopefully so will they. My experience here so far is to watch your back.
Nov 11th 2012, 4:15 am
#29
Forum Regular
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 131
Re: Australian Work Ethic
Well those of us who are here can all thank God we live in Australia instead of London or New York I suppose, although I guess our standard of living will gradually be ground down until we're all workbots as time goes on. The piss-poor Australian work ethic has put the country at second highest standard of living on the planet compared to UK's 26th and US's 13th, although the US recently changed the way the stats were measured to get them in to the top ten.
The other factor being overlooked in those numbers is the simple fact that, for now, we are lucky that there are a lot of things that can be dug up in this country and sold to China and others at high mark-ups. Canada is in a similar position for now. This will change with time as mines in Mongola and other places come on line - when that happens Australia will become a more interesting place, although I suspect many of us are here for the boom times and plan to head off in a few years anyway before all that $hit hits the fan.
Nov 11th 2012, 6:34 am
#30
Banned
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,300
Re: Australian Work Ethic
With respect, how accurate do you find these surveys? As ex-pats we are all lucky to have experience in different cultures. For me personally I'd take the USA over Australia and the UK long term, but that is my view having spent time in each place. (Bananas are the same price in the USA each day for example, and you can actually now buy a nice home in most places without need a million dollar mortgage like Sydney or lately even Melbourne) For now, Australia is definitely the place to be, but if the productivity levels can't compete longer term this is a problem.
The other factor being overlooked in those numbers is the simple fact that, for now, we are lucky that there are a lot of things that can be dug up in this country and sold to China and others at high mark-ups. Canada is in a similar position for now. This will change with time as mines in Mongola and other places come on line - when that happens Australia will become a more interesting place, although I suspect many of us are here for the boom times and plan to head off in a few years anyway before all that $hit hits the fan.
The other factor being overlooked in those numbers is the simple fact that, for now, we are lucky that there are a lot of things that can be dug up in this country and sold to China and others at high mark-ups. Canada is in a similar position for now. This will change with time as mines in Mongola and other places come on line - when that happens Australia will become a more interesting place, although I suspect many of us are here for the boom times and plan to head off in a few years anyway before all that $hit hits the fan.