Australian Work Ethic
Nov 12th 2012, 3:38 am
#61
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Joined: Jun 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 10,994
Re: Australian Work Ethic
Just to be a bit clearer about that. I was talking about HR's (the company's) position about hours worked / vs overtime etc. Now, the highest annual salary award rate for Professional Employees is just $61k...in other words, a pointless number because no one would in that position would be paid a salary like that...most would be in a range of 1.5 - 2.5 times that number. So what I was really saying was that given that, we accept that on occasions we work longer than 40 hours per week - the whole subject of the modern award only comes up because we have to agree to the variation in terms (i.e. I will work longer than 40 hrs per week if need be and nobody forced me to) and the level of the award is part of the justification for that variation. At other times people will spend most of their day drinking flat whites and playing on BE! It generally works. However sometimes things go wrong. It's in the nature of what we do, people estimate things poorly, tricky situations arise, things overrun, shit hits the fan! But rightly or wrongly salaried employees in this game wouldn't expect overtime for that...outside of chaotic times the company is normally more than happy with people pretty much coming & going as they please.
Nov 12th 2012, 3:44 am
#62
Fighting my corner
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 11,948
Re: Australian Work Ethic
The idea there of leaving the office at 5 to stuff your co-workers that work another 1/2 hour on a regular basis - well, most would feel to guilty to do that.
Nov 12th 2012, 3:52 am
#63
Forum Regular
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 131
Re: Australian Work Ethic
Interestingly, I heard an argument along those lines just the other day. I am sure it depends on sectors - in this sort of work I do, many people have tasks that create project dependencies - bad or unfinished code impacts others for example in pure technical work, in compliance related work rushing an email to leave at 5 when you could have got it right by staying till 510 can have huge knock on effects. I am not advocating working crazy hours, just that at times working a bit past five to not shaft others seems like the ethical thing to do. (I am speaking purely about what I have seen at a major bank vs what I saw at major banks in the UK and US - and fully admit other professions or areas this may not be a problem, which is why I find this thread and these answers quite interesting)
Nov 12th 2012, 5:03 am
#64
Almost more Oz than Pom
Joined: Aug 2010
Location: Brisbane northern suburbs
Posts: 1,154
Re: Australian Work Ethic
I am certainly not advocating leaving work at a set time each day when you can get something finished by staying 10-20 minutes (or even an hour) longer - anyone involved in project work (as I have been all my working life) expects that to happen sometimes. My beef is with employers who take it for granted that their employees will work 50, 60, 70 hour weeks regularly with no compensation.
And don't forget the people who live well away from the worksite who only have one train per hour - if they miss that by leaving late they are stuck until the next one.
And don't forget the people who live well away from the worksite who only have one train per hour - if they miss that by leaving late they are stuck until the next one.
Last edited by KJCherokee; Nov 12th 2012 at 5:05 am.
Nov 12th 2012, 5:59 am
#65
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 14,284
Re: Australian Work Ethic
Having said all that, I still think that anyone who is expected to work more than 40-45 hours a week on a regular basis without getting paid for it should seriously think about why they do it. Is it to gain experience and promotion? Is it because you fear being sacked if you don't? Is it because you would rather be at work than at home? Or is it like with bcworld, that you are paid over the odds to compensate for the overtime?
I think the below rings true as an explanation as to why I am not disturbed by my current employment arrangements. I am glad I am not in a job where I am watching the clock and cant wait to leave at the end of the day. I enjoy my work and although I am not paid by the hour, I am well paid.
For some it may well be they enjoy their work. I was a programmer for years and would have never left at 5 if I was near figuring out a problem, I enjoyed the work and having a tangible product that 'did something' at the end of the day. Most other software developers are similar, they want to do a good job because they also often actually enjoy what they do. It is fairly sad that most people seem to be in jobs where it is more about counting down the hours, but it is the nature of most careers I guess.
For some I think it is more basic though: a pride in the quality of your work that isn't directly related to pay.
For some I think it is more basic though: a pride in the quality of your work that isn't directly related to pay.
Nov 12th 2012, 6:09 am
#66
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 401
Re: Australian Work Ethic
I subscribe to the idea that the quality of your work reflects on your character, but I also believe that the quality of your work is not defined solely by the hours you put in. There are plenty of council workers clocking up paid overtime by leaning on shovels.
Is it simply a case of 'leaving at 5 to stuff your co-workers who stay on'? That seems an unwarranted generalisation to me. What happens if we flip it around? 'Staying past 5 to make your co-workers look lazy and incompetent, even if they're not.'
Is it simply a case of 'leaving at 5 to stuff your co-workers who stay on'? That seems an unwarranted generalisation to me. What happens if we flip it around? 'Staying past 5 to make your co-workers look lazy and incompetent, even if they're not.'
I had a colleague who has thankfully moved to another team who used to come in late daily, then say hi to everyone (including going round the office to greet people personally and enquire about what they'd got up to the night before), then go out and get coffee, then switch her computer on (and complain it took ages to start up). All up she probably never achieved anything until 10am minimum. She'd take morning tea and a full lunch break. As 5(ish) came and people got up to leave we would suffer sighs and martyred comments of how she'd have to stay another X minutes/hours as she was simply snowed under. One night I happened to stay too, to finish some stuff. I sat behind her but she didn't realise I could see her screen. She was on her personal email account, shooting the breeze. I stayed on a couple of other occasions and it was always the same. My boss used to start late and finish late, I assume this colleague was doing it to impress. That assumption was strengthened when I realised she never stayed a minute past 5 if the boss wasn't in.
Nov 12th 2012, 7:06 am
#67
Almost more Oz than Pom
Joined: Aug 2010
Location: Brisbane northern suburbs
Posts: 1,154
Re: Australian Work Ethic
Back in 1970 I worked for the Central Electricity Research Laboratory in Leatherhead. A typical day was get in at 9, do the Telegraph crossword, have a coffee break from 10 to 10:30, have lunch from 12 to 1, afternoon tea break 2:30 to 3, then go home at 5. In between, get the work done.
OK, that was 40 years ago and I may be exaggerating somewhat, but the point is that the British work ethic has not always been excessive unpaid overtime - I imagine that high unemployment and job insecurity has something to do with it. I worked in the UK from 1964 to 1982 in a variety of engineering jobs and unpaid overtime was not at all usual.
I do my job because I enjoy it - I'm past normal retirement age - and because I'm good at it. Getting well paid is a bonus, but if I worked for no pay I'd be exploited so I bill every hour I work - if my clients paid less they wouldn't value my work as much!
OK, that was 40 years ago and I may be exaggerating somewhat, but the point is that the British work ethic has not always been excessive unpaid overtime - I imagine that high unemployment and job insecurity has something to do with it. I worked in the UK from 1964 to 1982 in a variety of engineering jobs and unpaid overtime was not at all usual.
I do my job because I enjoy it - I'm past normal retirement age - and because I'm good at it. Getting well paid is a bonus, but if I worked for no pay I'd be exploited so I bill every hour I work - if my clients paid less they wouldn't value my work as much!
Nov 12th 2012, 12:07 pm
#68
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,039
Re: Australian Work Ethic
I'm Australian, a software developer and I left the office after 9pm today as I have a deadline. In my last job in the UK quite a few clock watched...and they drank far more and had far more hangovers than people in my current job in Australia. My boss was constantly ringing up nightclubs the morning after to retrieve lost phones and jackets 
What country wide assumptions can we draw from this ?
What country wide assumptions can we draw from this ?
Last edited by fish.01; Nov 12th 2012 at 1:55 pm.
Nov 12th 2012, 1:52 pm
#69
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,396
Re: Australian Work Ethic
I'm Australian, a software developer and I left the office after 9pm today as I have a deadline. In my last job in the UK quite a few clock watched...and they drunk far more and had far more hangovers than people in my current job in Australia. My boss was constantly ringing up nightclubs the morning after to retrieve lost phones and jackets
What country wide assumptions can we draw from this ?
What country wide assumptions can we draw from this ?
Nov 13th 2012, 8:52 am
#71
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Hill overlooking the SE Melbourne suburbs
Posts: 16,622
Re: Australian Work Ethic
I haven't read the entire thread but these threads are hard to answer
as so many people have different experiences.
To be honest, I don't subscribe to the view that Australians work harder than say a Brit or an American, or that they are inefficient - but I think it depends what sector you work in, and in which industry and how portable/global that industry is.
Regardless of hours worked, most Australian companies I work for want their employees to have some balance and ridiculous hours are frowned on.
The only manager I have met in 10 odd years who expects more and jokes /comments on it - well he wished we would do more hours - is a guy raised in Asia who has a US influenced corporate background.
As Fish said, people do long hours when deadlines approach - but in IT this is not untypical or unusual - and it's often self-motivation.
as so many people have different experiences.
To be honest, I don't subscribe to the view that Australians work harder than say a Brit or an American, or that they are inefficient - but I think it depends what sector you work in, and in which industry and how portable/global that industry is.
Regardless of hours worked, most Australian companies I work for want their employees to have some balance and ridiculous hours are frowned on.
The only manager I have met in 10 odd years who expects more and jokes /comments on it - well he wished we would do more hours - is a guy raised in Asia who has a US influenced corporate background.
As Fish said, people do long hours when deadlines approach - but in IT this is not untypical or unusual - and it's often self-motivation.
Nov 13th 2012, 8:57 am
#72
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Hill overlooking the SE Melbourne suburbs
Posts: 16,622
Re: Australian Work Ethic
Interestingly, I heard an argument along those lines just the other day. I am sure it depends on sectors - in this sort of work I do, many people have tasks that create project dependencies - bad or unfinished code impacts others for example in pure technical work, in compliance related work rushing an email to leave at 5 when you could have got it right by staying till 510 can have huge knock on effects. I am not advocating working crazy hours, just that at times working a bit past five to not shaft others seems like the ethical thing to do. (I am speaking purely about what I have seen at a major bank vs what I saw at major banks in the UK and US - and fully admit other professions or areas this may not be a problem, which is why I find this thread and these answers quite interesting)
I am certainly not advocating leaving work at a set time each day when you can get something finished by staying 10-20 minutes (or even an hour) longer - anyone involved in project work (as I have been all my working life) expects that to happen sometimes. My beef is with employers who take it for granted that their employees will work 50, 60, 70 hour weeks regularly with no compensation.
And don't forget the people who live well away from the worksite who only have one train per hour - if they miss that by leaving late they are stuck until the next one.
And don't forget the people who live well away from the worksite who only have one train per hour - if they miss that by leaving late they are stuck until the next one.
In my company there are a mixed bag of work ethics, as is the case in many companies, I'm sure.
My immediate boss, and her boss, have the expectation that at busy times it may be necessary for people to work a little later or come in a little earlier, if there is work to be done. The work I do revolves around project cycles and it can be very busy or very quiet. I am quite happy with this expectation because they equally have no expectation that I will sit around twiddling my thumbs and waiting for it to hit 5 if I have no work to do, they don't care if I nip off at 4.45 occasionally. They also trust us to come in late/leave early for doctors' appointments etc without worrying about 'making the time up'. Basically, as long as the work gets done, they're happy. I think that is fair and consquently have no issues staying until 6 or 7 very occasionally - this would be very unusual - although I do get in earlier than I'm required to every day, out of personal choice (it's convenient for transport reasons).
My department is also very relaxed about people grabbing coffees with colleagues etc during the day or just for a screen break etc - we have a coffee shop directly over the road as well as well equipped kitchens.
I work in a not for profit and there are people who have been here for longer than I've been alive. Some of them are absolutely wedded to the idea of morning and afternoon tea and down tools at 10.30 and 3 every day, for about half an hour. These are also the people who religiously clock off at 5. I've got no patience with them, the idea that morning and afternoon tea is some kind of entitlement is laughable to me and given that the employer plays fair with the rest of us, I don't see why they are so obsessed with leaving at 5 every day. Needless to say they also want to make appointments in work hours etc because everyone else does and that really winds me up.
Oh and we get free fruit too and yes, the bananas disappear fast!
My immediate boss, and her boss, have the expectation that at busy times it may be necessary for people to work a little later or come in a little earlier, if there is work to be done. The work I do revolves around project cycles and it can be very busy or very quiet. I am quite happy with this expectation because they equally have no expectation that I will sit around twiddling my thumbs and waiting for it to hit 5 if I have no work to do, they don't care if I nip off at 4.45 occasionally. They also trust us to come in late/leave early for doctors' appointments etc without worrying about 'making the time up'. Basically, as long as the work gets done, they're happy. I think that is fair and consquently have no issues staying until 6 or 7 very occasionally - this would be very unusual - although I do get in earlier than I'm required to every day, out of personal choice (it's convenient for transport reasons).
My department is also very relaxed about people grabbing coffees with colleagues etc during the day or just for a screen break etc - we have a coffee shop directly over the road as well as well equipped kitchens.
I work in a not for profit and there are people who have been here for longer than I've been alive. Some of them are absolutely wedded to the idea of morning and afternoon tea and down tools at 10.30 and 3 every day, for about half an hour. These are also the people who religiously clock off at 5. I've got no patience with them, the idea that morning and afternoon tea is some kind of entitlement is laughable to me and given that the employer plays fair with the rest of us, I don't see why they are so obsessed with leaving at 5 every day. Needless to say they also want to make appointments in work hours etc because everyone else does and that really winds me up.
Oh and we get free fruit too and yes, the bananas disappear fast!
Nov 21st 2012, 8:11 pm
#73
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Victoria
Posts: 1,280
Re: Australian Work Ethic
Haha you are working for a big 4 bank. The further you go up the food chain the more lazy you are entitled to be! It's even worse at government departments & the post office 
Where I am we get fresh fruit provided a couple days each week, then one morning per week a guy comes around with a big trolley full of pies & sausage rolls for everyone. Makes the "banana bunfight" seem like an orderly queue
Where I am we get fresh fruit provided a couple days each week, then one morning per week a guy comes around with a big trolley full of pies & sausage rolls for everyone. Makes the "banana bunfight" seem like an orderly queue
Nov 21st 2012, 11:54 pm
#74
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 23,400
Re: Australian Work Ethic
Haha you are working for a big 4 bank. The further you go up the food chain the more lazy you are entitled to be! It's even worse at government departments & the post office
Where I am we get fresh fruit provided a couple days each week, then one morning per week a guy comes around with a big trolley full of pies & sausage rolls for everyone. Makes the "banana bunfight" seem like an orderly queue
Where I am we get fresh fruit provided a couple days each week, then one morning per week a guy comes around with a big trolley full of pies & sausage rolls for everyone. Makes the "banana bunfight" seem like an orderly queue
I bagged 4 bananas and two oranges this week - the boys took the kiwi fruit and there are only a few fat chunky 'too much bother to peel' oranges in the bowl now.
Nov 23rd 2012, 12:13 am
#75
OnlyLivingBoyInNewCross
Joined: Nov 2008
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 653
Re: Australian Work Ethic
Ok,
So people don't work such crazy hours, you're used to and capable of a higher standard of work, you get to go home on time. I have heard this on numerous occasions and always wonder what the actual complaint is?
Go in do what you consider to be a half baked job, bugger off when everybody else does and reap the praise from you line manager. What is the problem??
Or would you rather get in a few minutes before everybody else so they see how much more dedicated you are (they don't give a f@ck btw) and stay later than them to demonstrate your superior commitment (they don't give a f@ck btw).
I used to work late regularly and a reality check made me realise that it can lead to poor time management. As a very friendly boss once told me, if you can't hold your job down at the right hours, find another one.
I have personally found the general work ethic to vary between people and the general organisation in the work place to be atrocious, but expect my next job to be different again...
So people don't work such crazy hours, you're used to and capable of a higher standard of work, you get to go home on time. I have heard this on numerous occasions and always wonder what the actual complaint is?
Go in do what you consider to be a half baked job, bugger off when everybody else does and reap the praise from you line manager. What is the problem??
Or would you rather get in a few minutes before everybody else so they see how much more dedicated you are (they don't give a f@ck btw) and stay later than them to demonstrate your superior commitment (they don't give a f@ck btw).
I used to work late regularly and a reality check made me realise that it can lead to poor time management. As a very friendly boss once told me, if you can't hold your job down at the right hours, find another one.
I have personally found the general work ethic to vary between people and the general organisation in the work place to be atrocious, but expect my next job to be different again...