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Australia - or should that be Tradieland?!

Australia - or should that be Tradieland?!

Old Dec 16th 2009 | 10:27 am
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Default Re: Australia - or should that be Tradieland?!

Originally Posted by BadgeIsBack
You might be surprised. The forces attracts some very capable people who have first rate brain and brawn. In fact for places like Duntroon, an academic record or some degree of application is just as, if not more important than some arbitrary fitness test. They can work on your fitness, your native intellect, maturity, decision-making and leadership skill is something else.
From someone who has been in actual combat, I've never understood the desire of the military for their officers to have degrees. Most of ours didn't (the older ones anyway, a lot of the national service ones did) and the majority were superb officers - my battalion commander was a total leader and a true African warrior.

You can't learn to be a leader - you either are or you aren't.
 
Old Dec 16th 2009 | 10:36 am
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Default Re: Australia - or should that be Tradieland?!

Originally Posted by Amazulu
From someone who has been in actual combat, I've never understood the desire of the military for their officers to have degrees. Most of ours didn't (the older ones anyway, a lot of the national service ones did) and the majority were superb officers - my battalion commander was a total leader and a true African warrior.

You can't learn to be a leader - you either are or you aren't.

Perhaps academic study helps officers to develop their grey matter, and enable them to make more rational decisions, such as "perhaps we should not torch this village".

Just a theory, it could be wrong.
 
Old Dec 16th 2009 | 10:42 am
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Default Re: Australia - or should that be Tradieland?!

Originally Posted by asprilla
Perhaps academic study helps officers to develop their grey matter, and enable them to make more rational decisions, such as "perhaps we should not torch this village".

Just a theory, it could be wrong.
Everyone knows right from wrong, many 'educated' officers have done the kind of thing you describe.
 
Old Dec 16th 2009 | 10:51 am
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Default Re: Australia - or should that be Tradieland?!

Originally Posted by Amazulu
Everyone knows right from wrong
Well this is certainly an interesting statement. I wish it were true.
 
Old Dec 16th 2009 | 10:52 am
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Default Re: Australia - or should that be Tradieland?!

Originally Posted by Amazulu
From someone who has been in actual combat, I've never understood the desire of the military for their officers to have degrees. Most of ours didn't (the older ones anyway, a lot of the national service ones did) and the majority were superb officers - my battalion commander was a total leader and a true African warrior.

You can't learn to be a leader - you either are or you aren't.
I would agree Amazulu, and that’s why officers are carefully selected for leadership qualities in the selection process.

But there are two halves on being an officer. One is leadership, the other is management.

Management is learned in the classroom.
 
Old Dec 16th 2009 | 10:54 am
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Default Re: Australia - or should that be Tradieland?!

Originally Posted by asprilla
Well this is certainly an interesting statement. I wish it were true.
It is true, some choose to ignore it though.
 
Old Dec 16th 2009 | 10:56 am
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Default Re: Australia - or should that be Tradieland?!

Originally Posted by slapphead_otool
I would agree Amazulu, and that’s why officers are carefully selected for leadership qualities in the selection process.

But there are two halves on being an officer. One is leadership, the other is management.

Management is learned in the classroom.
I was infantry, tip of the spear, we left all that management bullshit to the REMFs (I love that abbreviation although we never used it at the time)!
 
Old Dec 16th 2009 | 11:00 am
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Default Re: Australia - or should that be Tradieland?!

Originally Posted by Amazulu
I was infantry, tip of the spear, we left all that management bullshit to the REMFs (I love that abbreviation although we never used it at the time)!
I have been in infantry myself. There is actually quite a lot of management required even an infantry company. Actual combat leadership accounts for about 0.05% of a Company Commanders time. Most of his time is spent in paperwork.
 
Old Dec 16th 2009 | 11:03 am
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Default Re: Australia - or should that be Tradieland?!

Originally Posted by slapphead_otool
Actual combat leadership accounts for about 0.05% of a Company Commanders time.
Except when you are in combat.
 
Old Dec 16th 2009 | 11:06 am
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Default Re: Australia - or should that be Tradieland?!

Originally Posted by Amazulu
It is true, some choose to ignore it though.
Only in societies where people are educated. And that is my point.

Consider South Africa, and the day to day actions of many of its citizens. Many of them actually believe that they aren't doing anything wrong. They aren't ignoring "right from wrong" as you suggest. In fact, they are merely ignorant, because they have not received a good education from their parents or the system.
 
Old Dec 16th 2009 | 11:24 am
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Default Re: Australia - or should that be Tradieland?!

Originally Posted by Amazulu
Except when you are in combat.
Well, given the nature of combat an OC shouldn’t be getting himself involved in that anyway, unless his HQ is being overrun. But even then combat would account for a minute part of a soldiers life. as I said 0.05%.

The rest of the time is spent in managing his Company.
 
Old Dec 16th 2009 | 11:28 am
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Default Re: Australia - or should that be Tradieland?!

Originally Posted by slapphead_otool
Well, given the nature of combat an OC shouldn’t be getting himself involved in that anyway, unless his HQ is being overrun. But even then combat would account for a minute part of a soldiers life. as I said 0.05%.

The rest of the time is spent in managing his Company.
I hear what you are saying, officers - even junior officers, have to do a lot of paperwork, but it's hardly high level stuff. If you need a degree to do admin work then there is something seriously wrong.

Last edited by Amazulu; Dec 16th 2009 at 11:38 am.
 
Old Dec 16th 2009 | 11:36 am
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Default Re: Australia - or should that be Tradieland?!

Originally Posted by Amazulu
I hear what you are saying, officers - even junior officers, have to do a lot of paperwork, but it's hardly high level stuff. If you need a degree to do admin work then is something seriously wrong.
I fully agree, and I don’t like the trend either.

I still receive journals produced by the defence force, articles with titles like “Managing the Problems with Unilateral Standardisation and interoperability in Networks”. The connection with warfighting is so tenuous it’s a joke.

Men need to learn how to spot roadside IEDs, not how to interpret Metcalfes Law.

The problem IMHO is senior officers who are planning a career after the Army. No one wants an old soldier, so they make sure they get a few degrees up, ensuring a chance after discharge.
 
Old Dec 16th 2009 | 3:45 pm
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Default Re: Australia - or should that be Tradieland?!

Originally Posted by Amazulu
From someone who has been in actual combat, I've never understood the desire of the military for their officers to have degrees. Most of ours didn't (the older ones anyway, a lot of the national service ones did) and the majority were superb officers - my battalion commander was a total leader and a true African warrior.

You can't learn to be a leader - you either are or you aren't.
Agree - but it can be developed - and that is why they take young people with potential which is screened for.

For many years, degrees weren't that important in the British forces outside some specialist areas. I think 5 O Levels and a couple of A levels were enough. Grads were paid a bit more. Now I believe they get promoted quicker or they get rewarded for their time with seniority. Infact, they now seem to expect, or encourage older Grads and the maximum age of entry has rocketed just this last 10 years. It's just part of all this operating in a larger, connected, more complicated world where everyone stays on in education..it's not just the forces of course.

Don't forget that past Captain (eg) and into staff work, there is a fair bit of the old book work. There comes a time when intellectual rigour and all the rest of it starts to count.

The Yanks treat some of their (many) programmes as extensions of Uni/College so soldiers have degrees anyhow.

Originally Posted by slapphead_otool
I still receive journals produced by the defence force, articles with titles like “Managing the Problems with Unilateral Standardisation and interoperability in Networks”. The connection with warfighting is so tenuous it’s a joke.
Makes your head hurt.

Last edited by BadgeIsBack; Dec 16th 2009 at 3:48 pm.
 
Old Dec 16th 2009 | 3:50 pm
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Default Re: Australia - or should that be Tradieland?!

Originally Posted by Deutschmaster
Perhaps the professionals aren't wearing suits? I've noticed here that a lot of them don't. Types who do actual business still wear them, but it seems to be that professionals in engineering, IT and so on don't.
That would be my husband. He's a senior engineer but goes to work in casual dress pants, a polo shirt and a baseball cap. Oh, and he also wears his steel toed workboots even though he works in the cbd!

Last edited by comet555; Dec 16th 2009 at 3:58 pm.
 

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