Australia - or should that be Tradieland?!
#61
You might be surprised. The forces attracts some very capable people who have first rate brain and brawn. In fact for places like Duntroon, an academic record or some degree of application is just as, if not more important than some arbitrary fitness test. They can work on your fitness, your native intellect, maturity, decision-making and leadership skill is something else.
You can't learn to be a leader - you either are or you aren't.
#62
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,298
From: Brisbane











From someone who has been in actual combat, I've never understood the desire of the military for their officers to have degrees. Most of ours didn't (the older ones anyway, a lot of the national service ones did) and the majority were superb officers - my battalion commander was a total leader and a true African warrior.
You can't learn to be a leader - you either are or you aren't.
You can't learn to be a leader - you either are or you aren't.
Perhaps academic study helps officers to develop their grey matter, and enable them to make more rational decisions, such as "perhaps we should not torch this village".
Just a theory, it could be wrong.
#63
Everyone knows right from wrong, many 'educated' officers have done the kind of thing you describe.
#65
From someone who has been in actual combat, I've never understood the desire of the military for their officers to have degrees. Most of ours didn't (the older ones anyway, a lot of the national service ones did) and the majority were superb officers - my battalion commander was a total leader and a true African warrior.
You can't learn to be a leader - you either are or you aren't.
You can't learn to be a leader - you either are or you aren't.
But there are two halves on being an officer. One is leadership, the other is management.
Management is learned in the classroom.
#67
I was infantry, tip of the spear, we left all that management bullshit to the REMFs (I love that abbreviation although we never used it at the time)!
#68
I have been in infantry myself. There is actually quite a lot of management required even an infantry company. Actual combat leadership accounts for about 0.05% of a Company Commanders time. Most of his time is spent in paperwork.
#70
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,298
From: Brisbane











Only in societies where people are educated. And that is my point.
Consider South Africa, and the day to day actions of many of its citizens. Many of them actually believe that they aren't doing anything wrong. They aren't ignoring "right from wrong" as you suggest. In fact, they are merely ignorant, because they have not received a good education from their parents or the system.
Consider South Africa, and the day to day actions of many of its citizens. Many of them actually believe that they aren't doing anything wrong. They aren't ignoring "right from wrong" as you suggest. In fact, they are merely ignorant, because they have not received a good education from their parents or the system.
#71
Well, given the nature of combat an OC shouldn’t be getting himself involved in that anyway, unless his HQ is being overrun. But even then combat would account for a minute part of a soldiers life. as I said 0.05%.
The rest of the time is spent in managing his Company.
The rest of the time is spent in managing his Company.
#72
Well, given the nature of combat an OC shouldn’t be getting himself involved in that anyway, unless his HQ is being overrun. But even then combat would account for a minute part of a soldiers life. as I said 0.05%.
The rest of the time is spent in managing his Company.
The rest of the time is spent in managing his Company.
Last edited by Amazulu; Dec 16th 2009 at 11:38 am.
#73
I still receive journals produced by the defence force, articles with titles like “Managing the Problems with Unilateral Standardisation and interoperability in Networksâ€. The connection with warfighting is so tenuous it’s a joke.
Men need to learn how to spot roadside IEDs, not how to interpret Metcalfes Law.
The problem IMHO is senior officers who are planning a career after the Army. No one wants an old soldier, so they make sure they get a few degrees up, ensuring a chance after discharge.
#74
Lost in BE Cyberspace










Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,623
From: Hill overlooking the SE Melbourne suburbs











From someone who has been in actual combat, I've never understood the desire of the military for their officers to have degrees. Most of ours didn't (the older ones anyway, a lot of the national service ones did) and the majority were superb officers - my battalion commander was a total leader and a true African warrior.
You can't learn to be a leader - you either are or you aren't.
You can't learn to be a leader - you either are or you aren't.
For many years, degrees weren't that important in the British forces outside some specialist areas. I think 5 O Levels and a couple of A levels were enough. Grads were paid a bit more. Now I believe they get promoted quicker or they get rewarded for their time with seniority. Infact, they now seem to expect, or encourage older Grads and the maximum age of entry has rocketed just this last 10 years. It's just part of all this operating in a larger, connected, more complicated world where everyone stays on in education..it's not just the forces of course.
Don't forget that past Captain (eg) and into staff work, there is a fair bit of the old book work. There comes a time when intellectual rigour and all the rest of it starts to count.
The Yanks treat some of their (many) programmes as extensions of Uni/College so soldiers have degrees anyhow.
Makes your head hurt.
Last edited by BadgeIsBack; Dec 16th 2009 at 3:48 pm.
#75
That would be my husband. He's a senior engineer but goes to work in casual dress pants, a polo shirt and a baseball cap. Oh, and he also wears his steel toed workboots even though he works in the cbd!
Last edited by comet555; Dec 16th 2009 at 3:58 pm.



