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So, we are thinking of moving......

So, we are thinking of moving......

Old Apr 25th 2007, 3:26 pm
  #256  
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Originally Posted by Tish11 View Post
They were deprived of a decent education, A grand design by the nationalist party government or whoever the hell came up with the apartheid system. The real intention of the system was to keep black people right there (earning peanuts). It took fifty years to create this and a mere 10yrs in my view is hardly enough to correct it.
You are probably going to respong by saying its the ANC Government's fault. Maybe you are right, but the way i see it businesses have to contribute in one way or another. From my experience, even after 94 some companies were still NOT prepared to pay black graduates what their white counterparts were getting.
I suppose thats your BEE myth proven, a black person with little or no education should just be offered a job as a company director...Right?? Now I understand why you have such a big problem with BEE.

Not everyone had the same opportunities as I had. I think it is for that reason that I went an extra mile in explaining the issue about extra tuition often offered only in Maths and science. Automatically this excludes a huge amount of individuals..(it would be the case anywhere in the world). I had a lot of support around me. There are millions who were less opportuned than me.
South Africa's problems are not one size fits all.
What is upsetting, is the fact that here we have the powerhouse of Africa, being run into the ground through greed fed by corruption. By doing nothing about the crime situation, he is giving out a message that it is okay to do what they're doing, the government will turn a blind eye to it and pretend it isn't there.

Meanwhile, S.A.'s people of all races suffer. The wealthy ones less so, but still have to live in a fortress-like home.

The emerging black middle class the same.

The poorer classes of all colors, which the majority of S.A.n's are, have to put up with the awful situation they find themselves in - a target for the crims, living in squalor and jobless, many times due to BEE being enforced (as I've posted about before).

It is upsetting when we all know how much potential has been flushed down the drain through mismanagement. In 1994 to about 2000 the world was South Africa's oyster. They could do no wrong. The stench of corruption and government mismanagement is beginning to waft across the oceans since then.

It will take a statesman of Churchillian proportions to sort out S.A.'s problems.

Originally Posted by Pablo View Post
True, so why must we have a 'one size fits all' solution? It isn't going to work, and unless the SA government faces up to this fact very soon it will be too late to do anything about it.

You talk sensibly. But you know as well as I do that many, many others in SA are not so measured and moderate in their language or in their intentions for the future. Quite apart from other considerations, Mugabe is held up as a hero. There is much more one could say, but surely that one fact says it all.

Pablo
I find it disconcerting that throughout the last few years especially, he has been hailed by the AU leaders whenever he stands behind a podium. We know that there are many profitable business relationships behind it, but still.
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Old Apr 25th 2007, 7:24 pm
  #257  
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Unhappy Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

A bit off the point I know but someone explain this to me.

Just been off the phone to my Dad in Kwa-Zulu Natal where a raft of name changes to streets and building alike are taking place. One of the streets in Amanzimtoti is being named after the "Amamzimtoti bomber"

A bit insensitive.

bruce
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Old Apr 25th 2007, 7:33 pm
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Originally Posted by bruce67 View Post
A bit off the point I know but someone explain this to me.

Just been off the phone to my Dad in Kwa-Zulu Natal where a raft of name changes to streets and building alike are taking place. One of the streets in Amanzimtoti is being named after the "Amamzimtoti bomber"

A bit insensitive.

bruce

Isn't that just dandy?

Who is the chief of police for the former East Rand? Should be a clue.
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Old Apr 25th 2007, 10:27 pm
  #259  
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Originally Posted by Tish11 View Post
They were deprived of a decent education, A grand design by the nationalist party government or whoever the hell came up with the apartheid system. The real intention of the system was to keep black people right there (earning peanuts). It took fifty years to create this and a mere 10yrs in my view is hardly enough to correct it.
Forcing people into positions that they have not *earned* is not going to solve the problem. The term management is the key. Companies are assessed due to performance of their bottom line. Management has to be a part of that performance ( in most countries) regardless. This is an integral part of the economy.

Originally Posted by Tish11 View Post
You are probably going to respong by saying its the ANC Government's fault. Maybe you are right, but the way i see it businesses have to contribute in one way or another. From my experience, even after 94 some companies were still NOT prepared to pay black graduates what their white counterparts were getting.

I suppose thats your BEE myth proven, a black person with little or no education should just be offered a job as a company director...Right?? Now I understand why you have such a big problem with BEE.
What happens to any company that has directors and management that do not have the skills to run the company ? Personally I think the BEE and AA policies should have included a *earn* the position formulae which meant that black people would skill themselves up into the roles on proven capabilities. As you said, going the extra mile.

It is really very simple. We have a four year old boy who at times can be a wanting machine. Just take him to any toy shop to prove that one. We have to *teach* him that in life he simply doesn’t just get things. He gets an allowance; at four he has chores around the house. It is simple; we are teaching him the basics of life. If you want something (without using force or a gun) you earn it.

Originally Posted by Tish11 View Post
Not everyone had the same opportunities as I had. I think it is for that reason that I went an extra mile in explaining the issue about extra tuition often offered only in Maths and science. Automatically this excludes a huge amount of individuals..(it would be the case anywhere in the world). I had a lot of support around me. There are millions who were less opportuned than me. South Africa's problems are not one size fits all.
Tish, I admire your achievements and from what I understood of your explanation of how you have gotten to your place was not through having *special* opportunities but that they were there and you pursued them. Personally you have offered the key yourself. In life the formula is, if you want it you can get it, it necessitates going the extra mile.

Giving things away still equates to charity. I think 14 years of black rule is time enough to have stabilised the BEE and AA in the business world or is it that these policies have failed to produce capable skills and therefore have to continue to ensure that black people don’t continue to earn peanuts , still due to apartheid ?

Once again, personally speaking how do the black people living in squatter camps that are suffering from poverty under BLACK ANC RULE look to the new breed of black yuppies and feel that these yups were just given these high earning jobs, they didn’t have to earn the position , in their minds it is a case of – why not me, what is the difference between the elite black and the squatter camp black if they both don’t have the skills or education.

Therefore it is an apartheid system within the black race designed and deployed by blacks for blacks and doesn’t work.

I would imagine that black people living in squatter camps feel absolutely hopeless living in South Africa under ANC rule that has all these BEE and AA policies that do not change anything for the person that does not have a proper roof over their head, running water and electricity. You know, the basic stuff.

I would imagine that a lot of the times folk relate poverty to crime is that these squatter camp folk have nowhere to turn to earn except crime ? So if there was facilities in the apartheid era that offered you education ( of course coupled with you going the extra mile) what is on offer now, under black ANC rule?

I think the record is a bit worn out and time to try the flip-side.
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Old Apr 25th 2007, 10:37 pm
  #260  
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Originally Posted by bruce67 View Post
A bit off the point I know but someone explain this to me.

Just been off the phone to my Dad in Kwa-Zulu Natal where a raft of name changes to streets and building alike are taking place. One of the streets in Amanzimtoti is being named after the "Amamzimtoti bomber"

A bit insensitive.

bruce
Mate, it sits well with the crime that is rampant in SA. The ANC were a terrorist group and it just goes to show that terrorism is still honoured in the ANC.

It is yet another example of money squandering (hmm, where else in Africa does that happen?) whilst the real problems of the country are the folk that are starving and don’t have a roof over their head. These name changes are costing billions which could be better used to eradicate the poverty.

Without the poverty what can Africa say at the next summit when they need more charity.

In a word – crazy.

Even crazier that the rest of the world doesn’t say – enough. Attend to the real problems first.

I’ll get of the soapbox now……….
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Old Apr 26th 2007, 12:07 am
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

[QUOTE=Campbells;4697279]
What happens to any company that has directors and management that do not have the skills to run the company ?
Most companies are still run by whites anyway, except if you are suggesting that white south africans are unskilled. Well, I wouldnt know.

Personally I think the BEE and AA policies should have included a *earn* the position formulae which meant that black people would skill themselves up into the roles on proven capabilities. As you said, going the extra mile.
.
Ohhh, I get it white people deserve the positions and Ja, black people should just go the extra mile. Most of us are actually prepared to do so without being told by anyone that we ought to skill ourselves up. My understanding of BEE is that it is about skills development, employment equity etc.
I personally dislike BEE because it is being exploited by both black and white businesses and in so doing it discredits a lot of hard working black south africans and encourages people like you to continue thinking that black people want is handouts.

You do really think very little of us.
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Old Apr 26th 2007, 2:17 am
  #262  
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Originally Posted by Tish11 View Post
Most companies are still run by whites anyway, except if you are suggesting that white south africans are unskilled. Well, I wouldnt know.
Doesn’t make sense to me. There are BEE and AA initiatives blah blah blah so if all the companies are still run by white South Africans one of two things.

• The racial preferencing programmes are failing to deliver
• The blacks are not taking up the opportunity

Originally Posted by Tish11 View Post
Ohhh, I get it white people deserve the positions and Ja, black people should just go the extra mile.
Personally I think that there are a lot of black folk that thought / still think that white people just became rich by means of this magic wand, poof your white your rich and here have a good job too. Going the extra miles/s is what it takes regardless of colour.

You will notice that I referred to management, the reason being advancement and taking roles of *accountability and responsibility* ( well at least – usually).

Originally Posted by Tish11 View Post
My understanding of BEE is that it is about skills development, employment equity etc.
If that is the case and your earlier comment that South African whites are running most of the companies = failure of racial preferencing programmes such as BEE and AA. Ultimately this failure can only be referred back to a black government the ANC and can not be blamed on apartheid.

Originally Posted by Tish11 View Post
You do really think very little of us.
That really disappoints me. I thought that you were above playing the race card. Personally this whole thing just gets in the way far too much. Why can you and I not debate Africa, South Africa / black and white differences without the white not getting labelled * racialist*.

Some of my best friends in SA are black people and I think you should remember that I grew up in the UK ( that is hosting you) and your comments were that most UK people accept other races. Does that mean there is a boundary, accept but don’t discuss ? That just does not add up to freedom of speech, human rights and democracy.

Please do not assume that all whites are racist just as I accept that all blacks are not racists. Oh yes, racism works BOTH WAYS and is not restricted to white on black, in the reverse it too is racism.

Cheers
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Old Apr 26th 2007, 8:28 am
  #263  
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Originally Posted by Campbells View Post
Doesn’t make sense to me. There are BEE and AA initiatives blah blah blah so if all the companies are still run by white South Africans one of two things.

• The racial preferencing programmes are failing to deliver
• The blacks are not taking up the opportunity



Personally I think that there are a lot of black folk that thought / still think that white people just became rich by means of this magic wand, poof your white your rich and here have a good job too. Going the extra miles/s is what it takes regardless of colour.

You will notice that I referred to management, the reason being advancement and taking roles of *accountability and responsibility* ( well at least – usually).



If that is the case and your earlier comment that South African whites are running most of the companies = failure of racial preferencing programmes such as BEE and AA. Ultimately this failure can only be referred back to a black government the ANC and can not be blamed on apartheid.



That really disappoints me. I thought that you were above playing the race card. Personally this whole thing just gets in the way far too much. Why can you and I not debate Africa, South Africa / black and white differences without the white not getting labelled * racialist*.

Some of my best friends in SA are black people and I think you should remember that I grew up in the UK ( that is hosting you) and your comments were that most UK people accept other races. Does that mean there is a boundary, accept but don’t discuss ? That just does not add up to freedom of speech, human rights and democracy.

Please do not assume that all whites are racist just as I accept that all blacks are not racists. Oh yes, racism works BOTH WAYS and is not restricted to white on black, in the reverse it too is racism.

Cheers
Tish's tone has clearly changed, else I suspect someone else is using his/her username (hope this is the case, sure was a nice change). Pity, cos now the conversation has been degraded into the usual "whites are all racist because they cant accept BEE/AA, corrupt ANC etc" rubbish. Which will surely please 6000, being the white apolgist that he is.

I am just glad that I have managed to get my family out of this crap-hole. They are safe and sound in NZ, and I will be with them as soon as house is sold.
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Old Apr 26th 2007, 4:00 pm
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Originally Posted by kevinhenator View Post
Tish's tone has clearly changed, else I suspect someone else is using his/her username (hope this is the case, sure was a nice change). Pity, cos now the conversation has been degraded into the usual "whites are all racist because they cant accept BEE/AA, corrupt ANC etc" rubbish. Which will surely please 6000, being the white apolgist that he is.

I am just glad that I have managed to get my family out of this crap-hole. They are safe and sound in NZ, and I will be with them as soon as house is sold. :thumbsup:
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Old Apr 27th 2007, 12:08 pm
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

[QUOTE=Tish11;4697597]
Originally Posted by Campbells View Post
Most companies are still run by whites anyway, except if you are suggesting that white south africans are unskilled. Well, I wouldnt know.

.
Ohhh, I get it white people deserve the positions and Ja, black people should just go the extra mile. Most of us are actually prepared to do so without being told by anyone that we ought to skill ourselves up. My understanding of BEE is that it is about skills development, employment equity etc.
I personally dislike BEE because it is being exploited by both black and white businesses and in so doing it discredits a lot of hard working black south africans and encourages people like you to continue thinking that black people want is handouts.

You do really think very little of us.
Why should blacks get more rights than whites ?
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Old Apr 27th 2007, 12:23 pm
  #266  
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

[QUOTE=Douglas jack;4704658]
Originally Posted by Tish11 View Post
Why should blacks get more rights than whites ?
Why not?

Pablo
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Old Apr 27th 2007, 4:01 pm
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

[QUOTE=Pablo;4704717]
Originally Posted by Douglas jack View Post

Why not?

Pablo
Just wondered if you thought it was right in 2007,thats all.
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Old Apr 27th 2007, 4:14 pm
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

[QUOTE=Douglas jack;4705830]
Originally Posted by Pablo View Post
Just wondered if you thought it was right in 2007,thats all.
What's so special about 2007?

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Old Apr 27th 2007, 6:28 pm
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Equality of life.
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Old Apr 27th 2007, 7:19 pm
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Originally Posted by Douglas jack View Post
Equality of life.
Well that is a political postulate, not a fact. Is the fool equal to the wise man? Is a devil equal to a god?

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