Opposition to integration
Mar 20th 2008, 1:09 pm
#61
Member Delux
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2007
Location: Johannesburg
Posts: 288
Re: Opposition to integration
DaxK I think you hit the nail on the head with :
.
Its a known fact that in Africa following a very sudden transition like the one we had in 94 ."Freedom fighters" becoming government of the day. The victors often times feel an incredible urge to extract some sort of revenge on the oppressor. Forced redistribution of wealth. Leading to the catastophic collapses we've witnessed many times .
People worldwide including south africans are always amazed why there wasnt more civil war type bloodshed and mayhem following the transition. (Please dont bombard me with the crime stats again.) Besides the cool heads of our leaders from both sides .The ordinary black man on the street had to believe that in time, he too will get a better life than the one thats been forced on him so far. He only needs to be patient.
With a hostile private sector slow to develop the black talent they have and a very similar "jobs for life" white only public sector .Some kind of catalyst had to be introduced .Hence BEE or AA.
I know the scenarios you guys mentioned above does happen. Pablo was the only bad apples you came across in your working career black ? cos thats clear cases where the policy was applied as window dressing only with no attempt at training or mentoring .The candidate is then only set up to fail and fail he will sooner or later.
Ive found that companies normaly keep transgressions of Directors and senior managers quiet or even lie about their reasons for "leaving" a.k.a fired. Share prices and customers get very jittery when they hear any talk of bad corporate governance or mismanagement . Who does business with a company they dont trust. ?
Campbells knew his "friend" and I use that word lightly cos I wouldnt let a friend humiliate himself like that, was incompetent to the piont of being a joke. Why wasnt the man mentored and trained ,equiped with the intellectual tools he needs for his job ?
I guess being able to say I told you so is just easier and a lot more satisfying .
If a black candidate wonder if he got the job because of his skin colour then he probably did. The workyou produce and the response from your colleagues and customers to your input should be a clear indicator.
And in it's initial stages was suggested by Business to Counter the very real threat of mass re-distribution of wealth which the more Communistic and Socialist of the struggle groups still want and ALL Struggle groups had been promising their members for years to get support which was always Dangerous to give.
Business rightfully assumed that greed would win
Business rightfully assumed that greed would win
Its a known fact that in Africa following a very sudden transition like the one we had in 94 ."Freedom fighters" becoming government of the day. The victors often times feel an incredible urge to extract some sort of revenge on the oppressor. Forced redistribution of wealth. Leading to the catastophic collapses we've witnessed many times .
People worldwide including south africans are always amazed why there wasnt more civil war type bloodshed and mayhem following the transition. (Please dont bombard me with the crime stats again.) Besides the cool heads of our leaders from both sides .The ordinary black man on the street had to believe that in time, he too will get a better life than the one thats been forced on him so far. He only needs to be patient.
With a hostile private sector slow to develop the black talent they have and a very similar "jobs for life" white only public sector .Some kind of catalyst had to be introduced .Hence BEE or AA.
I know the scenarios you guys mentioned above does happen. Pablo was the only bad apples you came across in your working career black ? cos thats clear cases where the policy was applied as window dressing only with no attempt at training or mentoring .The candidate is then only set up to fail and fail he will sooner or later.
Ive found that companies normaly keep transgressions of Directors and senior managers quiet or even lie about their reasons for "leaving" a.k.a fired. Share prices and customers get very jittery when they hear any talk of bad corporate governance or mismanagement . Who does business with a company they dont trust. ?
Campbells knew his "friend" and I use that word lightly cos I wouldnt let a friend humiliate himself like that, was incompetent to the piont of being a joke. Why wasnt the man mentored and trained ,equiped with the intellectual tools he needs for his job ?
I guess being able to say I told you so is just easier and a lot more satisfying .
If a black candidate wonder if he got the job because of his skin colour then he probably did. The workyou produce and the response from your colleagues and customers to your input should be a clear indicator.
Mar 20th 2008, 1:22 pm
#62
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,881
Re: Opposition to integration
It was not a lack of 'training' or 'mentoring' that caused these people to steal and flog off company computers, or syphon off company funds (in the case of the Financial Director I mentioned). Or to secretly hold 2 jobs when he knew it was not permitted.
The ANC promised more than it could deliver. Now it is undone by trying to deliver more than it possibly can. You can't turn an ignoramus into a professor in five years, no matter what his ethnicity.
Mar 20th 2008, 10:41 pm
#63
Banned
Joined: Jun 2003
Location: North of Auckland
Posts: 1,996
Re: Opposition to integration
DaxK I think you hit the nail on the head with :
.
Its a known fact that in Africa following a very sudden transition like the one we had in 94 ."Freedom fighters" becoming government of the day. The victors often times feel an incredible urge to extract some sort of revenge on the oppressor. Forced redistribution of wealth. Leading to the catastophic collapses we've witnessed many times .
People worldwide including south africans are always amazed why there wasnt more civil war type bloodshed and mayhem following the transition. (Please dont bombard me with the crime stats again.) Besides the cool heads of our leaders from both sides .The ordinary black man on the street had to believe that in time, he too will get a better life than the one thats been forced on him so far. He only needs to be patient.
With a hostile private sector slow to develop the black talent they have and a very similar "jobs for life" white only public sector .Some kind of catalyst had to be introduced .Hence BEE or AA.
I know the scenarios you guys mentioned above does happen. Pablo was the only bad apples you came across in your working career black ? cos thats clear cases where the policy was applied as window dressing only with no attempt at training or mentoring .The candidate is then only set up to fail and fail he will sooner or later.
Ive found that companies normaly keep transgressions of Directors and senior managers quiet or even lie about their reasons for "leaving" a.k.a fired. Share prices and customers get very jittery when they hear any talk of bad corporate governance or mismanagement . Who does business with a company they dont trust. ?
Campbells knew his "friend" and I use that word lightly cos I wouldnt let a friend humiliate himself like that, was incompetent to the piont of being a joke. Why wasnt the man mentored and trained ,equiped with the intellectual tools he needs for his job ?
I guess being able to say I told you so is just easier and a lot more satisfying .
If a black candidate wonder if he got the job because of his skin colour then he probably did. The work you produce and the response from your colleagues and customers to your input should be a clear indicator.
.
Its a known fact that in Africa following a very sudden transition like the one we had in 94 ."Freedom fighters" becoming government of the day. The victors often times feel an incredible urge to extract some sort of revenge on the oppressor. Forced redistribution of wealth. Leading to the catastophic collapses we've witnessed many times .
People worldwide including south africans are always amazed why there wasnt more civil war type bloodshed and mayhem following the transition. (Please dont bombard me with the crime stats again.) Besides the cool heads of our leaders from both sides .The ordinary black man on the street had to believe that in time, he too will get a better life than the one thats been forced on him so far. He only needs to be patient.
With a hostile private sector slow to develop the black talent they have and a very similar "jobs for life" white only public sector .Some kind of catalyst had to be introduced .Hence BEE or AA.
I know the scenarios you guys mentioned above does happen. Pablo was the only bad apples you came across in your working career black ? cos thats clear cases where the policy was applied as window dressing only with no attempt at training or mentoring .The candidate is then only set up to fail and fail he will sooner or later.
Ive found that companies normaly keep transgressions of Directors and senior managers quiet or even lie about their reasons for "leaving" a.k.a fired. Share prices and customers get very jittery when they hear any talk of bad corporate governance or mismanagement . Who does business with a company they dont trust. ?
Campbells knew his "friend" and I use that word lightly cos I wouldnt let a friend humiliate himself like that, was incompetent to the piont of being a joke. Why wasnt the man mentored and trained ,equiped with the intellectual tools he needs for his job ?
I guess being able to say I told you so is just easier and a lot more satisfying .
If a black candidate wonder if he got the job because of his skin colour then he probably did. The work you produce and the response from your colleagues and customers to your input should be a clear indicator.
I am now responsible for my colleague and friend humiliating himself.
Well actually the company we worked for offered him to enrol for an MBA but I guess the sensitive area is explaining that he would have to be removed from the current position where he was actually doing all the damage.
For example your other posts re OR Thambo syndicates operating.
You obviously feel that the (overseas) company should offer him full time employment and then send him on full time study leave for two years or so and what security do they have with such an investment?
In that scenario the company has to increase prices or make cuts to other areas of the business to carry such a cost factor. So who would actually be paying the salary and education in such a scenario, the customer, in this case SAA and in that scenario it comes back to the SA taxpayer.
Why doesn’t the government set up the facility to up-skill in the first place?
I guess on the other hand - are there education courses available to explain to mature adults that buying expensive wrist watches on the company CC is a no go.
If that is the education level that is required you are referring to South Africa has a very long way to catch up with (dare I say) western world ethics.
What you are missing is:
We have friends in New Zealand and their children (two of them) are currently studying at university.
They both hold part time jobs and student loans to pay for their own education. This in itself is a good education as it prepares them for the real world where they will be expected to
Work
Retain ethics and adhere to rules
Be responsible for themselves
We have a 5 year old and he has a chore list, he doesn’t get given things he feels he is contributing and earning his pocket money etc. We are educating him in that respect, as it is how most of the world operates.
Of course the undertone that he was not really my friend is – what
Mar 21st 2008, 10:14 am
#64
Forum Regular
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 112
Re: Opposition to integration
History shows integration of diverse civilisations is a fallacy in the short term. Look at the occupation of any region by a super power of any era and you will quickly realise that the invader mocks and derides the defeated. See the Roman invasion of Britain and how Caesar believed that the only good people were the Romans and the only good method of governance was Roman. Historians are only now discovering that the Celtic occupants of Britain had equally good systems.
So integration, be it forced or inflicted, will only generate greater animosity between different cultures. We are witnessing a violent change of power by a different culture.
The white cultures have occupied and built a replica of European (derived out of Celtic, Greek and Roman culture) civilisation in Southern Africa. In so doing they have dispensed derision and denigrated on the indigenous populations which in modern parlance is described as racial discrimination.
Like all previous history, the invaders have spent too much of their own resources fighting (World War 1 and 2) to sustain their Empire and now must consolidate their holdings again. The vanquished have taken back what was taken from them. They have learned something of the culture of the invader and will now try to emulate what has gone before. In the meantime there has to be reparation for the "apparent" violation of their civilisation and systems.
What is apparent in the current situation is that the vanquished have failed to learn enough from the invader and the subcontinent as a whole is failing. They have taken the worst aspects of the systems and the leaders are exploiting them for personal gain.
Long term the region is on a tipping point. If the current leaders fail then the system is going to implode. The patience of the former powers has ended. There are no more handouts. We may in fact be witnessing the subtle financial invasion from the next superpower, China. It will be interesting to see if the people of the region can cope with a more ruthless Asian civilisation that takes very few prisoners.
In short Integration has never succeeded ever in history. The inter-breeding of differing civilisations will result in a new and different system.
So integration, be it forced or inflicted, will only generate greater animosity between different cultures. We are witnessing a violent change of power by a different culture.
The white cultures have occupied and built a replica of European (derived out of Celtic, Greek and Roman culture) civilisation in Southern Africa. In so doing they have dispensed derision and denigrated on the indigenous populations which in modern parlance is described as racial discrimination.
Like all previous history, the invaders have spent too much of their own resources fighting (World War 1 and 2) to sustain their Empire and now must consolidate their holdings again. The vanquished have taken back what was taken from them. They have learned something of the culture of the invader and will now try to emulate what has gone before. In the meantime there has to be reparation for the "apparent" violation of their civilisation and systems.
What is apparent in the current situation is that the vanquished have failed to learn enough from the invader and the subcontinent as a whole is failing. They have taken the worst aspects of the systems and the leaders are exploiting them for personal gain.
Long term the region is on a tipping point. If the current leaders fail then the system is going to implode. The patience of the former powers has ended. There are no more handouts. We may in fact be witnessing the subtle financial invasion from the next superpower, China. It will be interesting to see if the people of the region can cope with a more ruthless Asian civilisation that takes very few prisoners.
In short Integration has never succeeded ever in history. The inter-breeding of differing civilisations will result in a new and different system.
Last edited by TigerOC; Mar 21st 2008 at 10:16 am.
