MMcD

1)Can you help me to understand how, within the context of your statement (copied above - quote#1), you were not using the 2 synonymously?

2)Furthermore - pragmatically, to have any real meaning mustn't freedom of thought include freedom of speech?

Steve_

Not really, an Executive Order still has to have some basis in law. And they certainly couldn't remove your citizenship by executive order unless the basis was in the INA. An executive order is more a case of pointing the people enforcing the law in a certain direction. In the UK, the law can just be completely arbitrary.

I really hate it when citizenship law is used as some sort of anti-crime or anti-terrorist measure, what happens in Canada (and the US) is that you get people who say, immigrated as a young child, never naturalized then they grow up, join a gang or whatever and then get deported. Well how is that person the responsibility of a country they merely happened to be born in? If they grew up and were educated in this country, aren't they our responsibility?

If someone commits a crime, then let them be dealt with through the criminal justice system. If someone is a spy or a terrorist, then ditto.

Lion in Winter

I am taking freedom of thought to mean what people conduct inside their heads, not anything that is "granted" by their governments. The ability to see for oneself, to analyze, to imagine something else, to not simply accept unthinking the line that is handed out by the government, by media reflecting vested or party line interests, or by the dominant culture.

To your second point, no, I disagree. Every people or group or individual that has acted or risen up to change their personal circumstances or the circumstances of their country, or even simply refused to give in while imprisoned, has demonstrated freedom of thought in the fact of either physical, political, or psychological oppression or sometimes all three.

Freedom of speech may be won by people setting up a certain kind of government. Freedom of thought you retain on a personal level - unless, of course, you are too busy shopping and eating giant cheeseburgers to even care.

This phrase is attributed to more than one person in more than one language so I don't know who to credit.

"Liberty is not given, it is taken." It will be taken, ultimately, by those who retain freedom of thought even if they do not have freedom of speech or even freedom of their persons.

Jonion

I suppose Mandela is a good example of the type of person you're talking about there ^^^

Lion in Winter

It's a very long list. By no means just the famous. In fact, most of them aren't famous at all, not even close. Just ordinary people who don't lie down for stuff and who effect change.

Jonion

Erm. I'm aware of that, I was supporting your comments by giving an example that everyone would recognise.

I'll get back to packing .....

Lion in Winter

Erm, and I was aware of that. I was making conversation.

Coincidentally, I am also packing.

Hotscot

Packing?
As in filling boxes etc? Or the other kind?

Lion in Winter

I can't speak for Jonion, but I am peaceably putting books in boxes.

steveq

http://britishexpats.com/forum/newre...ply&p=11225844
...we started packing books about a year ago...we may have finished in another few months....

Jonion

Both



I doubt I'll ever finish.
I booked the container and my flight so that I had a deadline (the pressure increases productivity, or makes me leave stuff behind), otherwise I'd just be shuffling things around for the foreseeable future.

steveq

I think Lizzyq is feeling like that too. Every time she starts on the teenagers' room, she makes a great impression, turns round, and its back to full of shit again. She's not a happy bunny, easter or otherwise.

Jonion

I empathise.
I spend all day doing a room and then sit back and it looks like I've done sod all all day.

And it's only me here!

Mind you it's not helped that some folk call in to 'help' and then just distract me from the task for hours.
Can't really kick them out straight away though as they'll be missing me soon (I might miss them too ).

lizzyq

Us too. Though some books are more problematical than others - the original Noddy books for instance (pre naughty goblins). I think I may need to keep them locked away in the archives

lansbury

No it was a store cheesecake cover in thick chocolate.