US schools and the Pledge
Apr 6th 2007, 1:23 am
#61
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not
Apr 6th 2007, 1:24 am
#63
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Re: US schools and the Pledge
We're the same. Roland Hulme and whathisname from yesterday...criticised the UK and most of us jumped on them.
When push comes to shove most will defend their country. It's a bit like criticising your relatives...it's OK for you to do it but you don't like it when someone else does.
When push comes to shove most will defend their country. It's a bit like criticising your relatives...it's OK for you to do it but you don't like it when someone else does.
Apr 6th 2007, 1:24 am
#64
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Posts: 46,392
Re: US schools and the Pledge
Of course, "I" as an American can. That is not the point. She hates the US. She does not want to live here. She wants to continue living in England. She does not want to be an American. That is her right. It is not a matter of politics. Politics change with each election. That is the beauty of your county and mine. The citizens have the opportunity to vote for someone that can possibly change the way the country is governed. But to turn your back on it because you don't like the government rather than work within its political structure for a change that you feel is needed is wrong. At least in my opinion.
This person is not talking only politics. She is talking lifestyles and cultures. There is much wrong with this country and I don't like many of its political policies but I still would say the pledge. The pledge is not for the politicans and what it represents at the moment but rather it is a pledge to the country whose's constitution allows you to change what you don't like.
FWIW, I was raised to be a moral, upstanding citizen. I duty my civic duty when called upon. I vote in each and every election and primary. On a personal front, I am a moral person as well. I am respectful of others and their property. I do not take without giving back. I have raised my children to be the same. We are Americans and there are more Americans like myself then there are Americans that are not.
You have the right to freedom of expression but that freedom also includes the obligation to participate in the government that grants you that freedom. Running away to live outside of its boundaries and not participating by voting is not being a citizen and that goes for whatever your nationality is. Unless you are from a country that denies you the right to vote in absentia when you are no longer a legal resident of that country, i.e. Canada, you should participate in your country's government by voting. The changes your vote might make happen will effect you whether you return to live there or not.
Apr 6th 2007, 1:26 am
#65
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Posts: 46,392
Re: US schools and the Pledge
See, this is why you can't discuss politics with American people. They can't take any criticism of their country....even from their own.
And Americans weren't the only ones who died fighting the second world war. There were many Canadians, Rhodesians, South Africans, Australians, etc... (whose countries weren't involved in any way) etc..who fought and died too.
And Americans weren't the only ones who died fighting the second world war. There were many Canadians, Rhodesians, South Africans, Australians, etc... (whose countries weren't involved in any way) etc..who fought and died too.
Apr 6th 2007, 1:26 am
#66
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Posts: 8,266
Re: US schools and the Pledge
We're the same. Roland Hulme and whathisname from yesterday...criticised the UK and most of us jumped on them.
When push comes to shove most will defend their country. It's a bit like criticising your relatives...it's OK for you to do it but you don't like it when someone else does.
When push comes to shove most will defend their country. It's a bit like criticising your relatives...it's OK for you to do it but you don't like it when someone else does.
I should have said that most Americans can't take any criticism of their country?
Apr 6th 2007, 1:28 am
#67
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Location: Hong Kong, mostly.
Posts: 5,214
Re: US schools and the Pledge
I have rarely considered the comments of a person who 'hates' to rise to the level of a 'criticism'.
Apr 6th 2007, 1:30 am
#70
SUPER MODERATOR
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 88,023
Re: US schools and the Pledge
I'm not say we did TT...but it wasn't just one of us...it was many. I was trying to point out that most people do not like their country being criticisied.
Apr 6th 2007, 1:30 am
#71
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Re: US schools and the Pledge
Of course, "I" as an American can. That is not the point. She hates the US. She does not want to live here. She wants to continue living in England. She does not want to be an American. That is her right. It is not a matter of politics. Politics change with each election. That is the beauty of your county and mine. The citizens have the opportunity to vote for someone that can possibly change the way the country is governed. But to turn your back on it because you don't like the government rather than work within its political structure for a change that you feel is needed is wrong. At least in my opinion.
This person is not talking only politics. She is talking lifestyles and cultures. There is much wrong with this country and I don't like many of its political policies but I still would say the pledge. The pledge is not for the politicans and what it represents at the moment but rather it is a pledge to the country whose's constitution allows you to change what you don't like.
FWIW, I was raised to be a moral, upstanding citizen. I duty my civic duty when called upon. I vote in each and every election and primary. On a personal front, I am a moral person as well. I am respectful of others and their property. I do not take without giving back. I have raised my children to be the same. We are Americans and there are more Americans like myself then there are Americans that are not.
You have the right to freedom of expression but that freedom also includes the obligation to participate in the government that grants you that freedom. Running away to live outside of its boundaries and not participating by voting is not being a citizen and that goes for whatever your nationality is. Unless you are from a country that denies you the right to vote in absentia when you are no longer a legal resident of that country, i.e. Canada, you should participate in your country's government by voting. The changes your vote might make happen will effect you whether you return to live there or not.
This person is not talking only politics. She is talking lifestyles and cultures. There is much wrong with this country and I don't like many of its political policies but I still would say the pledge. The pledge is not for the politicans and what it represents at the moment but rather it is a pledge to the country whose's constitution allows you to change what you don't like.
FWIW, I was raised to be a moral, upstanding citizen. I duty my civic duty when called upon. I vote in each and every election and primary. On a personal front, I am a moral person as well. I am respectful of others and their property. I do not take without giving back. I have raised my children to be the same. We are Americans and there are more Americans like myself then there are Americans that are not.
You have the right to freedom of expression but that freedom also includes the obligation to participate in the government that grants you that freedom. Running away to live outside of its boundaries and not participating by voting is not being a citizen and that goes for whatever your nationality is. Unless you are from a country that denies you the right to vote in absentia when you are no longer a legal resident of that country, i.e. Canada, you should participate in your country's government by voting. The changes your vote might make happen will effect you whether you return to live there or not.
with your points today !
Apr 6th 2007, 1:36 am
#73
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 46,392
Re: US schools and the Pledge
It is you that have carried this to the extreme, not I.
I wonder who put the bug in hubby's ear to come to the US. Where they living in such gentile poverty in the UK that he felt that the opportunity to relocate and improve their financial lot in life was necessary for them to keep their financial heads above water. Why does he feel, and she doesn't, that they need to move to a country she abhors in order to live a better, i.e. more affluent lifestyle.
Ask yourself what your reaction would be to a Brit who is in tears because they were being forced to return to the UK against their wishes and better judgment to live a life that they feel is inferior to the one they now have. And be honest about it.
Apr 6th 2007, 1:37 am
#74
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Posts: 27,078
Re: US schools and the Pledge
Every country has its population segment that will never see anything wrong with their nation. France might lead the list of the worst offenders in that category. But by and large, more Americans than you are willing to admit do not hesitate to openly criticize their nation. And they do it out of love of country and concern for its future and reputation. But there will always be blind patriots who never see the dark side.