A stranger videoing my daughter at the pool
Aug 19th 2008, 10:46 pm
#196
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: East Bay Area
Posts: 2,192
Re: A stranger videoing my daughter at the pool
This thread (string) serves to illustrate the difference between what I call the American mindset, and the mindset which seems to be prevalent in the UK at the moment.
The UK mindset tends to focus on the individual incident, the emotions of those involved etc, putting oneself in kins' position. It focuses on the personal; an emotional, empathic response. I'm not trying to be offensive but I do think of it as a hand-wringing response. And the children must be protected from this threat *at all costs*. I understand that as a parent.
The mindset of people like Ray, TracyM and myself comes from abstracting up from the emotional level. As I said in an earlier post, we are viewing this incident from the macro level, focusing on the larger picture.
I would posit that this explains to some degree the differences between the current American and British cultures.
When incidents like school or mall shootings occur, the British are astonished why there isn't a groundswell of opinion in the US to ban firearms. If it saves just one life is the refrain.
The American - I would say libertarian - viewpoint is that the rights and freedoms of the majority should not be restricted because of the actions of the very few.
It's horses for courses, I guess. If you have more of the British mindset, you'd probably be happier living in the UK.
If, like me, you have more of a libertarian bent, you'd be happier here, as I am.
I used to read the tabloid press in the UK, even while over here. (The Sun, the Mirror, the Daily Mail etc.) Now I can't stand the sensationalism and voyeuristic wallowing in other people's grief.
The UK mindset tends to focus on the individual incident, the emotions of those involved etc, putting oneself in kins' position. It focuses on the personal; an emotional, empathic response. I'm not trying to be offensive but I do think of it as a hand-wringing response. And the children must be protected from this threat *at all costs*. I understand that as a parent.
The mindset of people like Ray, TracyM and myself comes from abstracting up from the emotional level. As I said in an earlier post, we are viewing this incident from the macro level, focusing on the larger picture.
I would posit that this explains to some degree the differences between the current American and British cultures.
When incidents like school or mall shootings occur, the British are astonished why there isn't a groundswell of opinion in the US to ban firearms. If it saves just one life is the refrain.
The American - I would say libertarian - viewpoint is that the rights and freedoms of the majority should not be restricted because of the actions of the very few.
It's horses for courses, I guess. If you have more of the British mindset, you'd probably be happier living in the UK.
If, like me, you have more of a libertarian bent, you'd be happier here, as I am.
I used to read the tabloid press in the UK, even while over here. (The Sun, the Mirror, the Daily Mail etc.) Now I can't stand the sensationalism and voyeuristic wallowing in other people's grief.
Very interesting post. I agree, reading thru this - I think and it does make sense. I am not here to say which way is right or wrong but I have a question and dont get me wrong. I amnot asking this to prove a point. Fair enough you think at a macro level but the Q is :
What would you do if it were you ? (I am not trying to ask this because I want to highlight my micro thinking or ur macro but more interest in what really you would do....curious that is.....)
thanks
Aug 19th 2008, 11:24 pm
#197
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 68,280
Re: A stranger videoing my daughter at the pool
Well thats simple ...you remove them from the situation without fuss
You do not let them be aware there is a situation
when thats done, report it .... To approach a possible dangerous
individual with the child watching is stupid beyond belief ....
And I have been an armed escort for children in real danger
You do not let them be aware there is a situation
when thats done, report it .... To approach a possible dangerous
individual with the child watching is stupid beyond belief ....
And I have been an armed escort for children in real danger
Aug 19th 2008, 11:28 pm
#198
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: East Bay Area
Posts: 2,192
Re: A stranger videoing my daughter at the pool
Well thats simple ...you remove them from the situation without fuss
You do not let them be aware there is a situation
when thats done, report it .... To approach a possible dangerous
individual with the child watching is stupid beyond belief ....
And I have been an armed escort for children in real danger
You do not let them be aware there is a situation
when thats done, report it .... To approach a possible dangerous
individual with the child watching is stupid beyond belief ....
And I have been an armed escort for children in real danger
Aug 20th 2008, 12:17 am
#199
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Vermont
Posts: 3,264
Re: A stranger videoing my daughter at the pool
This thread (string) serves to illustrate the difference between what I call the American mindset, and the mindset which seems to be prevalent in the UK at the moment.
The UK mindset tends to focus on the individual incident, the emotions of those involved etc, putting oneself in kins' position. It focuses on the personal; an emotional, empathic response. I'm not trying to be offensive but I do think of it as a hand-wringing response. And the children must be protected from this threat *at all costs*. I understand that as a parent.
The mindset of people like Ray, TracyM and myself comes from abstracting up from the emotional level. As I said in an earlier post, we are viewing this incident from the macro level, focusing on the larger picture.
I would posit that this explains to some degree the differences between the current American and British cultures.
When incidents like school or mall shootings occur, the British are astonished why there isn't a groundswell of opinion in the US to ban firearms. If it saves just one life is the refrain.
The American - I would say libertarian - viewpoint is that the rights and freedoms of the majority should not be restricted because of the actions of the very few.
It's horses for courses, I guess. If you have more of the British mindset, you'd probably be happier living in the UK.
If, like me, you have more of a libertarian bent, you'd be happier here, as I am.
I used to read the tabloid press in the UK, even while over here. (The Sun, the Mirror, the Daily Mail etc.) Now I can't stand the sensationalism and voyeuristic wallowing in other people's grief.
The UK mindset tends to focus on the individual incident, the emotions of those involved etc, putting oneself in kins' position. It focuses on the personal; an emotional, empathic response. I'm not trying to be offensive but I do think of it as a hand-wringing response. And the children must be protected from this threat *at all costs*. I understand that as a parent.
The mindset of people like Ray, TracyM and myself comes from abstracting up from the emotional level. As I said in an earlier post, we are viewing this incident from the macro level, focusing on the larger picture.
I would posit that this explains to some degree the differences between the current American and British cultures.
When incidents like school or mall shootings occur, the British are astonished why there isn't a groundswell of opinion in the US to ban firearms. If it saves just one life is the refrain.
The American - I would say libertarian - viewpoint is that the rights and freedoms of the majority should not be restricted because of the actions of the very few.
It's horses for courses, I guess. If you have more of the British mindset, you'd probably be happier living in the UK.
If, like me, you have more of a libertarian bent, you'd be happier here, as I am.
I used to read the tabloid press in the UK, even while over here. (The Sun, the Mirror, the Daily Mail etc.) Now I can't stand the sensationalism and voyeuristic wallowing in other people's grief.
Aug 20th 2008, 12:31 am
#200
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 719
Re: A stranger videoing my daughter at the pool
This thread (string) serves to illustrate the difference between what I call the American mindset, and the mindset which seems to be prevalent in the UK at the moment.
The UK mindset tends to focus on the individual incident, the emotions of those involved etc, putting oneself in kins' position. It focuses on the personal; an emotional, empathic response. I'm not trying to be offensive but I do think of it as a hand-wringing response. And the children must be protected from this threat *at all costs*. I understand that as a parent.
The mindset of people like Ray, TracyM and myself comes from abstracting up from the emotional level. As I said in an earlier post, we are viewing this incident from the macro level, focusing on the larger picture.
I would posit that this explains to some degree the differences between the current American and British cultures.
When incidents like school or mall shootings occur, the British are astonished why there isn't a groundswell of opinion in the US to ban firearms. If it saves just one life is the refrain.
The American - I would say libertarian - viewpoint is that the rights and freedoms of the majority should not be restricted because of the actions of the very few.
It's horses for courses, I guess. If you have more of the British mindset, you'd probably be happier living in the UK.
If, like me, you have more of a libertarian bent, you'd be happier here, as I am.
I used to read the tabloid press in the UK, even while over here. (The Sun, the Mirror, the Daily Mail etc.) Now I can't stand the sensationalism and voyeuristic wallowing in other people's grief.
The UK mindset tends to focus on the individual incident, the emotions of those involved etc, putting oneself in kins' position. It focuses on the personal; an emotional, empathic response. I'm not trying to be offensive but I do think of it as a hand-wringing response. And the children must be protected from this threat *at all costs*. I understand that as a parent.
The mindset of people like Ray, TracyM and myself comes from abstracting up from the emotional level. As I said in an earlier post, we are viewing this incident from the macro level, focusing on the larger picture.
I would posit that this explains to some degree the differences between the current American and British cultures.
When incidents like school or mall shootings occur, the British are astonished why there isn't a groundswell of opinion in the US to ban firearms. If it saves just one life is the refrain.
The American - I would say libertarian - viewpoint is that the rights and freedoms of the majority should not be restricted because of the actions of the very few.
It's horses for courses, I guess. If you have more of the British mindset, you'd probably be happier living in the UK.
If, like me, you have more of a libertarian bent, you'd be happier here, as I am.
I used to read the tabloid press in the UK, even while over here. (The Sun, the Mirror, the Daily Mail etc.) Now I can't stand the sensationalism and voyeuristic wallowing in other people's grief.
Aug 20th 2008, 12:33 am
#201
Unmitigated Gall
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: it's still too dark to tell
Posts: 16,162
Re: A stranger videoing my daughter at the pool
Aug 20th 2008, 12:36 am
#202
Unmitigated Gall
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: it's still too dark to tell
Posts: 16,162
Re: A stranger videoing my daughter at the pool
I find it to be the complete opposite over here. A drinking age of 21... large malls in towns that are freely allowed to ID everyone....being asked to show ID pretty much everywhere (i got on a train recently and the ticket said i need a valid photo ID!)....the patriot act....bars with 100% ID policies....in my opinion Americans routinely give up personal freedoms regularly without even questioning it.
Aug 20th 2008, 12:37 am
#203
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: NW Chicago suburbs
Posts: 11,253
Re: A stranger videoing my daughter at the pool
Permissible Subjects
Despite misconceptions to the contrary,
the following subjects can almost always be photographed lawfully
from public places:
accident and fire scenes
children
celebrities
bridges and other infrastructure
residential and commercial buildings
industrial facilities and public utilities
transportation facilities (e.g., airports)
Superfund sites
criminal activities
law enforcement officers
http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf
Despite misconceptions to the contrary,
the following subjects can almost always be photographed lawfully
from public places:
accident and fire scenes
children
celebrities
bridges and other infrastructure
residential and commercial buildings
industrial facilities and public utilities
transportation facilities (e.g., airports)
Superfund sites
criminal activities
law enforcement officers
http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf
When did the OP's kid swimming in a pool become a public event? That's a real stretch.
There's a distinct difference between background subjects being incidental to a photo and someone fixating on a stranger without consent. If we can figure that much out, then we can figure out where to draw a line.
She chose to give them up. I chose not to give mine up. Apparently, you believe that choices such as mine aren't worth respecting and that all of us should get the scrutiny of public figures?
Have you read the Declaration of Independence? The whole notion of rights coming from a creator is not so much a religious principle as it is a statement that rights are inherent unto man, and are not privileges that are doled out like trinkets by kings or the public.
You are born with rights, and you have to do something horrid and nasty, such as committing a felony, before they can be taken from you. We can't hold elections to take them away just because somebody who is indifferent to privacy decides that none of us should have them.
There's a distinct difference between background subjects being incidental to a photo and someone fixating on a stranger without consent. If we can figure that much out, then we can figure out where to draw a line.
She chose to give them up. I chose not to give mine up. Apparently, you believe that choices such as mine aren't worth respecting and that all of us should get the scrutiny of public figures?
Have you read the Declaration of Independence? The whole notion of rights coming from a creator is not so much a religious principle as it is a statement that rights are inherent unto man, and are not privileges that are doled out like trinkets by kings or the public.
You are born with rights, and you have to do something horrid and nasty, such as committing a felony, before they can be taken from you. We can't hold elections to take them away just because somebody who is indifferent to privacy decides that none of us should have them.
Likewise, someone being the subject or a background subject - another impossible line. Are you going to try to figure out what someone's intent was when they took a photo? (oh, I didn't mean to photograph her, she just moved into the frame). Or perhaps decide just how much of the photo frame people can occupy without asking permission? But wait... in the digital world I can take my computer and zoom right into any face I want - oops.
As far as Demi etc. - I sincerely doubt they CHOSE to be followed around and photographed with telephoto lenses in compromising positions.
I guess your choice isn't much worth respecting, since it's illegal. You don't get rights the rest of us don't. We all might be photographed in a public place. You are not extra-special.
This is just ridiculous - you either allow public photography or you don't. You can't pick and choose.
Hardly even know what to say about that last bit - quite amazing - you appear to be in the wrong country for what you want. You don't have a bunch of rights granted by some higher power that overrule the law.
I think a lot of you are missing the point here.
A stranger, giving obnoxious reasoning why he is filming the OP's 7 year old daughter for 30 minutes without the OP knowing, is not to me and to most other posters just a harmless photographer.
If he had given a reason why he was doing it, if he had apologized for doing it and if he had agreed to wipe out the film then I'm sure the OP would have felt a lot easier about the whole episode.
A stranger, giving obnoxious reasoning why he is filming the OP's 7 year old daughter for 30 minutes without the OP knowing, is not to me and to most other posters just a harmless photographer.
If he had given a reason why he was doing it, if he had apologized for doing it and if he had agreed to wipe out the film then I'm sure the OP would have felt a lot easier about the whole episode.
However, the child was not harmed in any way. And (this not at one particular poster) all of the extreme (imo) reactions suggested by various posters in response to the man's LEGAL act are what I was finding OTT.
But it's the slightly creepy factor that's the problem. WHY was he filming a 7 year old girl?
Another parent would be filming their kid so they had film of their kid - they'd have a good reason. I could live with that, no problem. I wouldn't want it to go online without my permission, but I wouldn't be worrying about it.
The creep had no valid reason for filming her.
Another parent would be filming their kid so they had film of their kid - they'd have a good reason. I could live with that, no problem. I wouldn't want it to go online without my permission, but I wouldn't be worrying about it.
The creep had no valid reason for filming her.
He apparently doesn't have to have a valid reason - that he wants to is reason enough legally.
But of course, I can see why (and support) you asking him to stop, as you're free to ask anyone to stop something that is bothering you.
Calling the cops? Well, I guess if you want to. All they could do I suspect is see if he had a record or something, they apparently cannot stop him from filming either.
I'm afraid it seems to me that the best you can do (and you did) is to remove your child from the situation.
Aug 20th 2008, 12:40 am
#204
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 719
Re: A stranger videoing my daughter at the pool
yes. it is 18, and it isnt as rigorously enforced. 21 is way too high and imo encourages an unhealthy attitude towards alcohol. The idea of being able to go to uni and not be able to drink is insane. America seems to have an almost puritanical attitude towards alcohol.
Aug 20th 2008, 12:44 am
#205
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: NW Chicago suburbs
Posts: 11,253
Re: A stranger videoing my daughter at the pool
I find it to be the complete opposite over here. A drinking age of 21... large malls in towns that are freely allowed to ID everyone....being asked to show ID pretty much everywhere (i got on a train recently and the ticket said i need a valid photo ID!)....the patriot act....bars with 100% ID policies....in my opinion Americans routinely give up personal freedoms regularly without even questioning it.
I don't know where you live - I almost never show an ID. I get on the train all the time - noone's ever asked for my ID. If you were writing a check to purchase it, I guess you'd need an ID. But so what? You show an ID to get on a plane. I've never EVER seen a mall that IDs everyone.
And a bar with 100% ID policies - again so what? They make sure you're of legal age.
I really don't understand the big deal about showing an ID - they glance at the pic and hand it back. Doesn't seem like giving up a personal freedom to me - honestly seems a big deal about nothing really.
Aug 20th 2008, 12:51 am
#206
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Vermont
Posts: 3,264
Re: A stranger videoing my daughter at the pool
Then when I did get back a load of people have replied.I agree it is a libertarian view point. However he uses American and libertarian interchangeably, I don't believe all Americans are of that viewpoint just as I don't believe all Brits are prone to sensationalise and view everything from an emotional level. As he seems to be suggesting.
Aug 20th 2008, 12:56 am
#207
Concierge
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 46,473
Re: A stranger videoing my daughter at the pool
No, they have a healthy attitude about young people drinking and driving and raised the legal drinking age to 21 in the hopes that by that age the person would be mature enough to see the consequences of irresponsible behavior.
Aug 20th 2008, 12:59 am
#208
Concierge
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 46,473
Re: A stranger videoing my daughter at the pool
I don't know where you live - I almost never show an ID. I get on the train all the time - noone's ever asked for my ID. If you were writing a check to purchase it, I guess you'd need an ID. But so what? You show an ID to get on a plane. I've never EVER seen a mall that IDs everyone.
And a bar with 100% ID policies - again so what? They make sure you're of legal age.
I really don't understand the big deal about showing an ID - they glance at the pic and hand it back. Doesn't seem like giving up a personal freedom to me - honestly seems a big deal about nothing really.
Aug 20th 2008, 1:03 am
#209
Banned
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Santa Monica,CA from Birmingham, UK
Posts: 18,402
Re: A stranger videoing my daughter at the pool
So did the OP ever look for this highly dangerous man at large on the website I posted....................... or is everyone too busy with hysterics
Aug 20th 2008, 1:06 am
#210
Unmitigated Gall
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: it's still too dark to tell
Posts: 16,162
Re: A stranger videoing my daughter at the pool
So you think the British attitude toward alcohol is healthy? By that I mean that the UK attitude and minimum age fosters a society of responsible drinkers?
