Having read your initial contribution to the debate, I assume "challenge" is your particular euphemism for "insult".

Nyxlas having read the posts on the link I could not agree with you more - SteveBannister has every right to be an Atheist - but he need not insult others' beliefs in such an unpleasant manner.

Perhaps you should have read the whole thread then. It was all lighthearted with people who have spoken on many occasions.

Having read your reply to mine, I assume "read" is your particular euphemism for "gloss over and pick out the bits I want to talk about". - A bit like the bible, really!

Try reading it all, then comment. Else, don't comment at all!

Let us not rise to the bait in the above post folks

It's not bait, it's a response. In one of your previous posts on this thread you accused someone of "trying to tell people what to think", yet you are doing the very same thing by tring to tell people not to respond. The original post said, "This post is for the secular people among us. If you hold deep religious beliefs then please do not read this thread so you can avoid being offended". He was asking what people thought of religion and I answered.

It's very easy to rubbish someone's argument when you have nothing structual to say, but it's not very intelligent, is it.

Let people discuss what they want to and stop acting like some kind of moderator.

I think this is one of the most important discussions ever to be had on the message board. I had no idea America was so religious before i moved here, i had heard the south was, and i still moved here; So as i could be with my new wife. I have so much i want to say on this i don't know where to begin; it seems to me as though religion here is more "religiotainment" more than anything else. The baptists, who i personally despise as a faith have bastardised christianity into a "consumption is good, do as you are told" way of life. How many times have i seen the parking lots of their mega-churches brimming with $60,000 SUV's and Mercedes Benz's???...loads, i'll tell you.

For the baptists, (and others) it is all about appearance...how much i have been "blessed" with material goods and money because i am a 'good christian'. Bullshit...being a christian (so i am told) means a life of humble service to others.
Religiotainment here in the south is about appearances, being 'conservative' and a bush supporter. I hate those three things.
These ignorant people are like sheep, being fed biblical lies by some con artist preacher who lives it up with 5 houses and a ton of cars and money, all because these 'followers' tithe 10% of their income to the church, but wouldn't spit on the real poor of the nation. The hypocrasy is astounding.

I have become very 'anti-christian', i am agnostic by choice but these people have done such a good job of showing me what they are really like i don't want to have anything to do with them ot their religiotainment. The church here is like an emotional crutch, afterall there is nothing else to do in most small towns so why not go to church and be told what to do.

Most christians do not know any real scholarly theology...the bible was written and complied over thousands of years, and is really an instrument of Roman control. Why else was the catholic church centred at the heart of the roman empire....so the pope could make a religious decree and the masses would do as they are told....Marx was right: Religion is the opium of the masses.

Don't get me wrong, i love the USA and all the opportunities i have here. I am grateful to be here, but feel VERY strongly on the religion issue.

I was insensed when my 3 year old son came home from a supposedly 'secular' daycare and started singing about jesus, and said god bless you when i sneezed. The amount of brain washing and proselatysing (sp) that goes on starts at an early age...it is enough for me not to go and explode at the daycare workers for their insensitive and downright arrogant forcing down the throat of my son their fairy stories, what next: the world is flat, and is carried on the back of a turtle???

Very good post. Are you from Muswell Hill, I used to go to Saturday morning pictures there! 10p every Saturday while my mum did the shopping!

Steve.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Muswell Hill
How many times have i seen the parking lots of their mega-churches brimming with $60,000 SUV's and Mercedes Benz's???...loads, i'll tell you.

You want to see opulence? go to the Rome - The Vatican, although it's a beautiful place to see, I was quite taken aback by how disgusted I felt at the sheer wealth lavished on something that essential has no earthly presence. It did actually quite sicken me, something I didn't expect to feel.

I am not as well up on all the ancient history as Mr Bannister is, so couldn't defend a corner in a religious debate as to why I just don't 'believe'
Me I just don't get how so much money can be lavished on pastime which is essentially brainwashing.

Gosh, think I've just fell off the fence on this one.

I do hope this thread carries on to be a lengthy debate. I might not be able to contribute anything worthwhile, but it's bloody interesting reading.

Jill
From the Church of the Tender Rabbit

Is this an opinion I see before me? Well done Jill, I knew you had it in you!

Steve.

Born in UCH, lived in Muswell Hill as a tot. The cinema in Muswell Hill is the one that was used in "Notting Hill". I was visiting one time and happened to see the film crew there!

I agree about the catholic church and its opulence. It disgusts me that an organisation so wealthy does not do more to relive global poverty and infact encourages it with the medievil rules on contraception and abortion...i know, if you are dirt poor and have no access to a Dr, have more kids!!! That way you are bound to starve and the mother die during labour.
I used to be catholic, but was 110% turned against it when the priest told me i was sinning as i was going to marry a divorced woman. What the **** does a celebate man know about marriage??? Rather like asking a blind man for his opinion on a Monet painting. The christian rhetoric spouted on abortion, divorce, contraception, homosexuality, sex before marriage etc etc makes me want to vomit.

Do these fundamentalists and the various demoninations really think jesus or god gives a **** on whether i had sex before i got married, the fact my wife (through no fault of hers-she was cheated on by her ex) was divorced and now we are a loving family or i have many friends who are gay?? No, God would say go and play with your toys......if he/she existed as the christians believe in an omnipotent human like person.

I am amazed actually churches are still around, with todays enlightenment of science and art they are an anachronism of our past. They teach intolerance, conformity, survitude, ignorance and total obiedience to doctrinal teaching. That goes against 21st century open thinking, tolerance of others, the desire to understand science and a moral code based upon 5000 years of human history.

What makes me laugh most of all are the different bible editions...king james, baptist, catholic...i thought there was just one 'true word of god'? Picking and choosing what to include and leave out. Also they were written in arameic and greek and subtleties of translation and meaning have been lost, and why are the 'gnostic' gospels left out? Why...the vatican said so...it would 'contradict what has been included for years'....again, more hypocrasy and population control.

That must be why Jesus lived such a lavish lifestyle </sarcasm>. Someone told me before I came here that "the religion of Americans is America", and the more I see of American Christianity, the more I conclude that it is a thin veneer for the worship of Mammon, and that any parts of the Bible which contradicted the sacred tenets of Americans' mythology of themselves would be brushed under the carpet.

As for the Catholic Church, whilst the Vatican may be lavish, there is a tradition of voluntary simplicity (eg. the Franciscans) which partially offsets it, and which I suspect would be considered positively subversive here. Wasn't it Oscar Romero who said something like "When I feed the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor are poor, they call me a communist"?

In Britain the centre of social life in most of our communities is the local pub.

In America they don't have pubs (well, maybe some grotty dives with bars that pass for a pub) and in our town the last alcohol licence - limited to just five licences - changed hands for $500,000.

The effect is that since they don't have pubs like we have in Britain (and Europe, Australia etc.) the social life of most communities is centred around the churches and synagogues...the forthcoming church/temple events take up pages in our local once-per-week newspaper.

A superb post

It's great to know that I am not the only one that thinks religion is insane over here.

Religion is a big factor on voting for Southerners too which means George Bush could get in again for another term. But then, he didn't win the last election but is still in the White House

Bush quote: "God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them"

Those that speak to a god are religious, those that hear him are schizophrenic.

Here's a little online test you all might find amusing. It proposes to determine what faith (or non faith) a person is and most, including secular humanism is included. I think it told me I should be a Unitarian, then a Buddhist, then a secular humanist... or something... it's been awhile since I took it. Here it is:
Belief-O-Matic

The funny thing is, is that when my husband took it, its aid he oughta be a reform Jew or something...

Lemme know what you think!

Thanks for posting the link to the test.
Apparently I should be a Jain or a Sikh or a liberal Quaker.

I realise that this topic has been mis-titled - the word "secular" definition being:

"secular -- concerning those not members of the clergy;"

Now there are probably not many members of this forum who are members of the clergy - I believe the heading should have read something like

"Anti-Religionists" Only

so I was upset when other members started attacking religion generally - and then justified their post by arguing that anyone with religious views should not have been on here reading it anyway.

That ain't what "secular" means.

If the topic title had been different I would have stayed away from this one as, although I am not a very religious person I do have some beliefs.