need legal advice
Oct 17th 2006, 3:50 am
#76
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 8,271
Re: need legal advice
Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP
I do think that you're out on a limb on that one. Proving fraud carries a much higher bar to hurdle than that, and asking about the implications of not paying a bill is alone not conspiracy to commit fraud.
From what I've seen in the US, to be convicted of fraud, there would have to be some trail of evidence (possible examples: use of aliases and/or false information to obtain credit, misappropriating funds obtained from the creditor to other purposes not intended under the loan, selling the goods obtained on credit to pocket the cash while skipping out on the payments, etc., etc.) that makes it clear that you never intended to pay or that your use of credit was otherwise under false pretenses. Since it's difficult to prove intent, you need plenty of supporting evidence. (On a professional level, I've been involved in several business litigation cases against parties who breached agreements left and right, but proving criminal fraud would have been next to impossible, despite a laundry list of violations.)
And even if it was fraud, it would in this case be a violation of UK law, not US federal or state law, as the payments are owed to a UK creditor. A UK creditor is not going to have much standing here, being that they can't use US courts to prosecute their claims against you and can't put entries on your US credit report.
From what I've seen in the US, to be convicted of fraud, there would have to be some trail of evidence (possible examples: use of aliases and/or false information to obtain credit, misappropriating funds obtained from the creditor to other purposes not intended under the loan, selling the goods obtained on credit to pocket the cash while skipping out on the payments, etc., etc.) that makes it clear that you never intended to pay or that your use of credit was otherwise under false pretenses. Since it's difficult to prove intent, you need plenty of supporting evidence. (On a professional level, I've been involved in several business litigation cases against parties who breached agreements left and right, but proving criminal fraud would have been next to impossible, despite a laundry list of violations.)
And even if it was fraud, it would in this case be a violation of UK law, not US federal or state law, as the payments are owed to a UK creditor. A UK creditor is not going to have much standing here, being that they can't use US courts to prosecute their claims against you and can't put entries on your US credit report.
CPS Charging practice:
* Common law conspiracy to defraud. Conduct falling under this heading consists of an agreement by two or more persons to dishonestly deprive another of something which belongs to that person, or to which he/she would be or might be entitled to, and an agreement by two or more persons to injure some proprietary rights of another, by dishonesty. (For the definition of dishonesty, (see R.v. Ghosh [1982] Q.B. 1053; 75 Cr.App.R 154) and (Archbold 21-24 to 21-26). Additionally, common law conspiracy to defraud can also consist of a dishonest agreement between two or more persons to "defraud" another by deceiving him/her into acting in a way contrary to his/her duty.
Prosecutors should be aware that common law conspiracy to defraud is far wider in its application than the range of conduct caught by any of the individual statutory offences....
- Deceiving a creditor into allowing the debtor more time to pay, whether the debtor does not intent to make permanent default;
-Intentionally providing assistance towards the commission of a fraud which is not in fact committed.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/section8/chapter_b.html#08
Oct 17th 2006, 6:55 pm
#77
Forum Regular
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 31
Re: need legal advice
If a UK Court entered a judgment against your wife, a US court would summarily enter a court judgment enforcing the judgment under principles of comity. US Courts routinely will enter reciprocal judgments enforcing judgments from countries who provide adequate due process. Adequate due process is a systemic inquiry about whether you are provided with notice of the suit, an opportunity to respond, and whether the judgment meets minimum standards of international law, e.g. American courts would not enforce an judgment granted by an Iranian Court against Sallaman Rushdie for defaming Islam while there was a fatwa out promising him execution if he appeared in the Iran. You are not going to convince a US judge that the UK does not provide minimal due process.
The judgment would be granted reciprocity with one court hearing. I can't tell you whether a collection agency would send the judgment to a US lawyer to seek reinforcement, but I can tell you that many of the same agencies exist in both the US and UK and sending it to the US might be a purely internal matter. Further with Experian and Exquifax reporting judgments in both countries, it might be only a question of time before an agreement is reached on international credit reporting of debts.
Running from UK is not the same running from Dubai.
The judgment would be granted reciprocity with one court hearing. I can't tell you whether a collection agency would send the judgment to a US lawyer to seek reinforcement, but I can tell you that many of the same agencies exist in both the US and UK and sending it to the US might be a purely internal matter. Further with Experian and Exquifax reporting judgments in both countries, it might be only a question of time before an agreement is reached on international credit reporting of debts.
Running from UK is not the same running from Dubai.
Oct 17th 2006, 10:49 pm
#78
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Palmyra, NY
Posts: 2,130
Re: need legal advice
I skipped the last four pages so this may have already been said...
Based on first hand experience, they will come after you to America... We owed about 50GBP to Debenhams cards in England as a reasult of them not cancelling the card coverage when we cancelled the card about four years ago.
With interest payments, it built up to about 250GBP and despite us contacting Debenhams ourselves and them admitting it was there error we started getting letters from a US based collection agency who deal with international debt.
Obviously, once it all got sorted out we paid nothing and the collection agency went away (not without affecting our credit score slightly first I would like to point out)...
My advise to you would be to pay it off any way possible...
If it means taking out a loan over here to atleast get the debt into this country do it. Check your term and conditions, you may not be allowed to have that loan outside of the UK and they'll demand it back immediately.
I've heard of some people who have contacted there lenders and pleaded poverty and the lenders have reduced the debt just to get part of it back, but I wouldn't expect anything... at the end of the day, YOU are the one who's screwed up, not them and they can (and probably will) track you!
So, there you go... First hand experience that they will get you.
No legal rubbish involved. Pay up or get a lawyer.
Based on first hand experience, they will come after you to America... We owed about 50GBP to Debenhams cards in England as a reasult of them not cancelling the card coverage when we cancelled the card about four years ago.
With interest payments, it built up to about 250GBP and despite us contacting Debenhams ourselves and them admitting it was there error we started getting letters from a US based collection agency who deal with international debt.
Obviously, once it all got sorted out we paid nothing and the collection agency went away (not without affecting our credit score slightly first I would like to point out)...
My advise to you would be to pay it off any way possible...
If it means taking out a loan over here to atleast get the debt into this country do it. Check your term and conditions, you may not be allowed to have that loan outside of the UK and they'll demand it back immediately.
I've heard of some people who have contacted there lenders and pleaded poverty and the lenders have reduced the debt just to get part of it back, but I wouldn't expect anything... at the end of the day, YOU are the one who's screwed up, not them and they can (and probably will) track you!
So, there you go... First hand experience that they will get you.
No legal rubbish involved. Pay up or get a lawyer.
Last edited by CitySimon; Oct 17th 2006 at 10:57 pm.
Oct 18th 2006, 2:54 am
#79
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: need legal advice
Originally Posted by CitySimon
No legal rubbish involved. Pay up or get a lawyer.
Oct 18th 2006, 5:33 am
#80
Nuts and Bolts
Joined: Sep 2006
Location: Palm Tree in the Snow
Posts: 2,116
Re: need legal advice
No-one has commented on the fact that they are married even if she left the country. Surely any debt incurred during their marriage becomes their debt instead of just hers. Would the husband or wife remaining in the country not be held responsible for that debt? Surely that would blow his credit rating as well?
Oct 18th 2006, 6:37 am
#81
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: need legal advice
Originally Posted by Tegwyn
No-one has commented on the fact that they are married even if she left the country. Surely any debt incurred during their marriage becomes their debt instead of just hers. Would the husband or wife remaining in the country not be held responsible for that debt? Surely that would blow his credit rating as well?
Oct 18th 2006, 6:46 am
#82
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 8,271
Re: need legal advice
Originally Posted by Tegwyn
No-one has commented on the fact that they are married even if she left the country. Surely any debt incurred during their marriage becomes their debt instead of just hers. Would the husband or wife remaining in the country not be held responsible for that debt? Surely that would blow his credit rating as well?
