Steerpike

Which cities would you cite as references? London was a perfect example, in my view, of a great multicultural city back in the late 70s/early 80s when I lived there, and I imagine it's the same today - people from Australia, Europe, Middle-East, Asia, etc - fantastic place. But where I grew up - 'up north', post-industrial wasteland (North West, just north of Manchester) I'd say the "Multiculturalism" has been a big negative. There is only one type of immigrant there - primarily Pakistani-origin (eg, Bradford, 15% of population; Oldham 13%, Nelson 13%, etc), and these percentages don't reflect the percentages in the inner-city and poorer neighborhoods. These immigrants have not made any effort to integrate, and have essentially displaced and disrupted the local population.

Come to think of it, these places were shitty dumps before, and are now just different types of shitty dumps (I can say that, I grew up in one! ). Thank God I was able to get out.

I have to say there is ONE unequivocal contribution ... the FOOD! Without a doubt, the best food in the UK is the 'Indian' food (Indian/Pakistani) so there is some good to come out of it!

Manc

a little harsh.

Liverpool and Manchester are hardly recognisable from what they were in the 80's

Giantaxe

Add Birmingham to that list, a place hardly recognizable from the 70's. And I would also say that London is a more vibrant place than it was back then too.

Manc

I'm not au fait with Birmingham, but I can believe it.......

Steerpike

Is your point that Liverpool and Manchester are much improved, and improved because of the immigration?

usoruk

I know England has changed in many ways, for those living there, they just deal with it as part of life and probably only see minor changes. But for us visiting, it is a major shock and does bring a tear to the eye. I always want to remember my England as a magical place. It's the sweet memories that I can share with my family here. And even if we did move back it will be hard to accept the changes and to adjust. We will be foreigners in our own land. it's not the place most of us left all those years ago. But we have memories that many people from other nations do not have or will never understand. I miss Chistmas the most and then the summers at the seaside and picnics in the park by a river. Even the dew on the morning grass in October and frost in november.
I miss the times my dad would get us to jump in the car and drive us down a country lane to some historical pub, we'd sit outside and have coke and crisps. Oh how I miss the country roads around Buckinghamshire (my family is still there). The fish and chips, bangers and mash even birds eye fishfingers. Took alot for granted.
Hubby's cousin came to stay with us for a while, she is from Nottingham. Now that she is back-she'll ring me up every week to tell me how she sees her home with new eyes, literally. She walks every day now and savours every minute, even on the cool days she is out and about and notices all the history more now and loves seeing people walking around-something she did not see here in AZ.
We did visit Scottsdale saturday night-we were looking for the waterfront, walkable areas-hubby said it was just few shops overlooking the AZ canal!! It was getting dark so could'nt find it. But did drive through old town-nice to see people around and some cobbled streets. Next time we will go earlier and explore more-trouble is can't go too early-don't want to be sweating while shopping!!!

Steerpike

The picture below is of the waterfront. It is 'just a few shops overlooking the canal' - but it is very pretty, and acts as a link between the newly developed 'waterfront' area to the north, and the older part of downtown to the south. Also, note that it is not really visible from the road - it is a pedestrian zone (something you are looking for!) - you have to get out of the car to find it.

Looking at the annotated map, for reference, the major intersection is Scottsdale and Camelback. '1' is the Fashion Square shopping mall; you can find ample parking there and enjoy a classic indoor mall experience if it's too hot. Then, you can browse '2' - the area south of the mall, north of the canal. There is a PF Chang on the corner of Scottsdale/Camelback, and a Barnes And Noble on another corner. If you head south past Barnes and Noble, you will eventually get to "Olive and Ivy", which is in the photo, overlooking the water. Then you should see '3', which is a pedestrian only footbridge over the canal, and is where the picture was taken. From there, you can meander around several shops, and eventually go down Stetson, 5th, or 3rd Ave to Scottsdale Road ('4'), where you will see a very lively 'bar/restaurant' scene - lots of very busy places with people all around. You can walk back up Scottsdale Rd and turn left onto Camelback (at the PF Chang again) and back to the mall for your car. Thats a very easy, pleasant walk.

If you are more adventurous, you can keep waking south down Scottsdale Rd, past Indian School, and explore '5', which is true 'old town', and cross Scottsdale to '6' which is the 'gallery' section. Note that 5 and 6 are the 'old town' parts of Scottsdale, while '3' and '4' are also older and quite lively. Area '5' has a lot of night-time foot traffic, while '6' is more daytime/gallery oriented - so skip 6 if you want to see hoards of people.

The area to the east of '5' is also fun during the day - I was there yesterday - that's where the civic center, performing arts center, etc are - nice fountains, etc (3rd pic). If you want, you can do the '1/2/3/4' walk, then drive down and park near '5' and explore there too.

Giantaxe

I would say that immigration has been a significant contributor to the increased vibrancy of the major cities, especially Birmingham. But I do also agree that in some places - particular towns that had severe socio-economic issues prior to large-scale immigration, immigration has brought with it significant issues- Blackburn and Burnley are obvious examples. In other words, it's very much a mixed bag.

And I strongly disagree with the premise that a "magical England" has somehow disappeared because of immigration. Some of that is coded racism.

This survey is a bit old (but after 7/7). Interesting that a majority are in favour of multiculturalism:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4137990.stm

Manc

I'd say I don't think it hurt.

Whilst as you say, there may be problem areas such as Oldham and the like, the fact you can now find a nice Spanish tapas bar in Bury or authentic Armenian etc is positive don't you think.

But improvements in culture is just one aspect. A change in the mindset is another. Whilst many people denegrate the EU and the influx of johnny foreigners. Many Brits have become more European. We don't think twice anymore to sitting in outside cafes on nice days watching the world go around. We've embraced the social drinking culture of 24 hours pubs without any additional aggro and I'll hazard a guess that drink as much as you can till 11pm then spew it up in a taxi after battering people on the way home has been cut dramatically.

Sally Redux

If you go somewhere like Gateshead with very little immigration you see the reverse - a dead ghost town.

usoruk

Giantaxe-"Magical England" - for me, at least, refers to growing up somewhere that almost reminds me of the "narnia" image, Christmas card village scene (I don't see it here, especially in AZ!!) England will never lose that-the rich history, breathtaking, NATURAL beauty, not man-made - NO connection to racism at all- I am Indian myself - respect all cultures -that is it- it has never bothered me about what type of ethnic minority groups are around - just as long as everybody is respectable to each other AND respect the country they live in - that's what counts for me. Going back to UK for a visit, after being in sunny, HOA controlled environments, empty footpaths, wide, clean highways, fake everything ie even hedges don't look natural-things will look small, old, grey, dirty, overcrowded and different back home -that is ok-its just because most of us have been away for so long and have forgotten where we have come from, that magic may seem to no longer exist-but IT IS still there- I suppose just got to look for it and relive some good times.
Steerpike-We are planning to take another visit to scottsdale again and will definately explore all the places mentioned-great map-thanx.

Manc

yeah the grand canyon is a bit shit isn't it.

usoruk

USA has many beautiful places, visited Niagara falls, Grand Canyon, west coast, East coast, the Rockies, Yellowstone-but for me personally-the emerald green country side of the British Isles is what I miss the most.
Note-what I MISS. And most of my comparisons, are of the AZ suburban valley to the idyllic, quaint scenes of England

jovauk

Hey usoruk..I have been living here for 9 years in Mesa and I really dont think that you do ever get used to the heat in the summer months but the rest of the time can be pretty great and as others have said cooler spots are only a short drive away....how old are your kids....I have a 5 year old son. Sometimes I find its just chatting to other UK peeps that helps....let me know whereabouts in the valley u are and maybe we can arrange to have a drink or something;-)

Englishtart

Compared too, say the arndale centre? too bloody right!!