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execution of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams..

execution of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams..

Old Dec 12th 2005, 7:07 pm
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Default execution of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams..

Stanley Tookie Williams, the co-founder of the CRIPS in LA, is due to get lethal injection tonight. Since he was incarcerated he has written several books trying to dissuade kids from joining gangs, and has been nominated for the Nobel peace price on 5 occasions (which anyone can be - there is no vetting procedure). he is a 'changed man'.

Does becoming a changed person after 25 years on death row mean you should get a commuted sentence to life without parole? Not after an argument here, just curious on opinion!
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Old Dec 12th 2005, 7:12 pm
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Default Re: execution of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams..

Originally Posted by CarlM
Stanley Tookie Williams, the co-founder of the CRIPS in LA, is due to get lethal injection tonight. Since he was incarcerated he has written several books trying to dissuade kids from joining gangs, and has been nominated for the Nobel peace price on 5 occasions (which anyone can be - there is no vetting procedure). he is a 'changed man'.

Does becoming a changed person after 25 years on death row mean you should get a commuted sentence to life without parole? Not after an argument here, just curious on opinion!
I think that if this guy is now a reformed charector and is of use to society then he should absolutely be spared the death penalty and be put to use.
If any of his words or books will go any way to stop even a few kids joining gangs or turning to a life of crime then he should be employed by society to keep writing and speaking.... let him repay society in a useful way!
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Old Dec 12th 2005, 7:13 pm
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Default Re: execution of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams..

Originally Posted by CarlM
Stanley Tookie Williams, the co-founder of the CRIPS in LA, is due to get lethal injection tonight. Since he was incarcerated he has written several books trying to dissuade kids from joining gangs, and has been nominated for the Nobel peace price on 5 occasions (which anyone can be - there is no vetting procedure). he is a 'changed man'.

Does becoming a changed person after 25 years on death row mean you should get a commuted sentence to life without parole? Not after an argument here, just curious on opinion!
Your question is a pretty complex one. I guess it depends on whether you are basically prepared to grant someone forgiveness simply because they apologise for their actions. Any idiot knows that what this man did was wrong so why should he get clemency for simply admitting that - though as far as I'm aware old tookie hasn't even admitted that he was guilty, let alone apologised.

For me the most interesting thing about this case was how once again racism rears its head in the US of A. The question of granting Williams clemency was not a racist issue, yet his supporters have made it one - this is rather unpleasant in my opinion. It just seems that so many people in this country see a persons colour before they see a murder.
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Old Dec 12th 2005, 7:13 pm
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Default Re: execution of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams..

Originally Posted by CarlM
Stanley Tookie Williams, the co-founder of the CRIPS in LA, is due to get lethal injection tonight. Since he was incarcerated he has written several books trying to dissuade kids from joining gangs, and has been nominated for the Nobel peace price on 5 occasions (which anyone can be - there is no vetting procedure). he is a 'changed man'.

Does becoming a changed person after 25 years on death row mean you should get a commuted sentence to life without parole? Not after an argument here, just curious on opinion!
No one can argue that he didnt try to do something good with his books, but he did murder at least 3 people (I think the forth is still disputed), and the sentence should stand. If he didnt want to be executed, he shouldn't have killed those people. Right or wrong, its the law of the land.
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Old Dec 12th 2005, 7:17 pm
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Default Re: execution of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams..

Depends.

If the purpose of incarceration is rehabilitation and not solely punishment, then yes, his sentence should be commuted.

However, society now seems to believe that prisoners cannot be rehabilitated and makes no effort to do so; they merely want them locked away from society. Any reform made or contribution to society is seen as manipulative.

Makes my head spin when a significant part of this same society says that it is Christian (turn the other cheek, let he without sin cast the first stone, leave judgment to God, etc.).
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Old Dec 12th 2005, 7:22 pm
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Default Re: execution of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams..

Originally Posted by snowbunny
However, society now seems to believe that prisoners cannot be rehabilitated and makes no effort to do so; they merely want them locked away from society. Any reform made or contribution to society is seen as manipulative.
Can you list all the societies that ever believed anything different ??
To my mind in western society at least rehabilitation has always been a liberal pipedream.
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Old Dec 12th 2005, 7:24 pm
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Default Re: execution of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams..

Originally Posted by Chorlton
No one can argue that he didnt try to do something good with his books, but he did murder at least 3 people (I think the forth is still disputed), and the sentence should stand. If he didnt want to be executed, he shouldn't have killed those people. Right or wrong, its the law of the land.
True.
Without wanting to sound flippant he should have tried to have the law changed before he committed the murders. Like a man once said "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime".
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Old Dec 12th 2005, 7:30 pm
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Default Re: execution of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams..

Originally Posted by BigDavyG
Can you list all the societies that ever believed anything different ??
To my mind in western society at least rehabilitation has always been a liberal pipedream.
But redemption is a big part of Christianity; that's why so many of the crazys got annoyed with LOTR.

So shouldn't he be forgiven if he can prove he's no longer evil?
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Old Dec 12th 2005, 7:33 pm
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Default Re: execution of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams..

Originally Posted by anotherlimey
But redemption is a big part of Christianity; that's why so many of the crazys got annoyed with LOTR.

So shouldn't he be forgiven if he can prove he's no longer evil?
But that doesn't answer my question.
Has any society actually practised this principal for real, not just pontificated about it ??
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Old Dec 12th 2005, 7:34 pm
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Default Re: execution of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams..

I'm not a believer in the death penalty, but if you do have it - isn't this the type of person for which the death penalty is intended?

He is convicted of killing 4 people. Plus he is responsible for unknown amounts of gang violence.

He never admitted guilt, and shown no remorse. Surely that is needed for clemency?
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Old Dec 12th 2005, 7:34 pm
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Default Re: execution of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams..

Originally Posted by BigDavyG
Has any society actually practised this principal for real, not just pontificated about it ??
Of course not.
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Old Dec 12th 2005, 7:35 pm
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Default Re: execution of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams..

s sound
Originally Posted by snowbunny
Depends.

If the purpose of incarceration is rehabilitation and not solely punishment, then yes, his sentence should be commuted.

However, society now seems to believe that prisoners cannot be rehabilitated and makes no effort to do so; they merely want them locked away from society. Any reform made or contribution to society is seen as manipulative.

Makes my head spin when a significant part of this same society says that it is Christian (turn the other cheek, let he without sin cast the first stone, leave judgment to God, etc.).
Know what you mean.
I hope Arnie grants him clemency.
Yes, the guy did a horrific thing but I don't believe killing him is the answer.
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Old Dec 12th 2005, 7:35 pm
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Default Re: execution of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams..

Originally Posted by britchicknyc
I'm not a believer in the death penalty, but if you do have it - isn't this the type of person for which the death penalty is intended?

He is convicted of killing 4 people. Plus he is responsible for unknown amounts of gang violence.

He never admitted guilt, and shown no remorse. Surely that is needed for clemency?
Exactly
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Old Dec 12th 2005, 7:37 pm
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Default Re: execution of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams..

Originally Posted by britchicknyc
He never admitted guilt, and shown no remorse. Surely that is needed for clemency?
That's true...

... so lets burn him.
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Old Dec 12th 2005, 7:38 pm
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Default Re: execution of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams..

Originally Posted by CarlM
Stanley Tookie Williams, the co-founder of the CRIPS in LA, is due to get lethal injection tonight. Since he was incarcerated he has written several books trying to dissuade kids from joining gangs, and has been nominated for the Nobel peace price on 5 occasions (which anyone can be - there is no vetting procedure). he is a 'changed man'.

Does becoming a changed person after 25 years on death row mean you should get a commuted sentence to life without parole? Not after an argument here, just curious on opinion!
NO

the Crips are responsible for countless homicides

Writing books for kids who don't/can't read?

Thats worthwhile, NOT

He needs to die IMO - gangs are one of the worst perpatratos of violent crime is the USA
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