Sally Redux

So what is going on?

helpmeplease123

If you want to discuss the conflict and our respective opinions please feel free to PM me, i'm not going to turn this thread into a political debate.

fakey

Personally - I think Helpme has something of a point
The BBC and England/ Europe generally do not seem to have a balanced view of the Israeli/ Palestinian conflict

It may be more covert in England, but in some parts of Europe anti semitism is openly expressed. In England imho its just more on the down low

Sally Redux

The original comment was about someone being fed-up being told that Iran should be bombed, it's the way I feel too, America for some reason I don't understand has to kow-tow to Israel.

kimilseung

Let's not start pretending anti-zionism is anti-jewish.
It is a very dangerous strategy that some in the Zionist community have been trying to foster.

Sally Redux

I agree with this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...gaza-us-policy

kimilseung

Yes it is laughable when the US tries to present itself as an honest broker in talks. But The Palestinian side knows it needs the US at talks because nothing will be done by Israel without that influence.

dlake02

helpmeplease123

I made the comment about the child that had been so indoctrinated by her parents belief systems that she spouted utter rubbish. It would be like you or me refusing to shop in Ikea because of what the Vikings did to East Anglia.

I come from a partly Jewish (NOT ZIONIST) family, with some members that still live in Israel. They have campaigned for a secularisation of Israel as a state, and pointed out how unjust it is to have a state built on religious supremacy such as Israel, Saudi, England. (The latter is a moot point these days given that religious participation in England is less than 6% these days, but it was very relevant when fighting the various Irish wars over the years but it would still be nice to see true disestablishment).

I would and have been equally appalled by christian zealots and bigots telling me their views and indoctrinating their kids in a similar way.

fakey

Yeah but a lot of it IS anti semitism

fakey

How is England built on religious supremacy ? Are you mental ?

dlake02

I think this is trite, jingo-istic nonsense. I don't need flags, songs, rhymes, rituals every-day, sometimes twice a day, to know MY allegiances. To me, it comes over as childish.

I think the tone that this thread has taken proves my point - it is very difficult to make friends with Americans because rather than try and accept that their view is different or (shock-horror) maybe even WRONG, they start from a position of "This is MY view and it is right."

I see insecurity and bravado at every turn....

dlake02

As I said, these days it isn't other than on paper.

Google - Disestablishmentarianism

Unlike France or Germany, Church and State are not separate in England. It is an historical legacy, not a real fact these days.

It is, interestingly, one of the reasons Blair gave for not declaring his faith when he was PM. That and the fact that 95% of the populous would have branded him a "religious nutter" (I believe his or Alistair Campbells words).

fakey

Well if thats aimed at me - Im English ha ha

& I agree it can seem like that & maybe it is trite- Im not sure - but - my experience in the UK pride in who we are & our history is largely ( or was largely- maybe its changed a bit since Ive been here) something uncomfortable for a lot of the country- in some ways though maybe its testament to English people being comfortable enough in their identity that they dont have to assert a national identity all the time.

I quite like the Pledge of Allegiance personally- & find the love a lot of Americans feel for their country to be quite touching/ pleasant/ whatever
My personal experience was that many English are quite the opposite & spend a lot of time slagging the country off- thats all

'Indoctrination' - is by definition a bad thing

dlake02

That is very true, but I think it comes down to a much deeper sense of belonging; maybe one that comes from a long history.

I liken it to family - you always love them, but you don't necessarily like or agree with them. But that doesn't make you any less part of them.
Not you - the US !!!!

Nah - not SLAGGING. We're still all very proud - we watch James Bond (blimey - wasn't Skyfall brill ?), Top Gear, Becks (Australia ? please), etc.

If you think it's unique to the English, try winding a Frenchman up by saying "what do you think about France ?" Very proud of France, but you'll get a VERY long and cynical view of all the ails of the country - just make sure you've been to the loo first cos you're going to be there a long time.

Zen10

I'm not only looking for negatives at all Beaverstate, and I do say clearly I am a supporter of the US. I stand by everything in my post, although I will let up a bit on manufacturing which could be turned around - but not without further suppressing wages. The minimum wage was a whole dollar per hour less at the end of Reagan than when he came to power. You are quite right to highlight its resources which are great, like the other big countries' resources but rarely get mentioned.

As for the civil liberties comment, it is not only true but serious and needs to be addressed. The PATRIOT Act is a disgrace, then there's Guantanamo, Bush's outsourcing of important security contracts to private companies, the widespread wiretapping, the infiltration of unions and citizens' groups by counter-intel groups, the targetting, harassment and detention of people at airports, including non-US citizens (I know someone who was subjected to this humiliation and had to have the airport phone Scotland Yard to let her travel - a 65 year old lady who has never left her hometown in Devon) via the notorious "passenger list" aka "dissident list", the Military Commissions Act of 2006 which enables the president personally to label anyone as an "enemy combatant" and have him or her imprisoned without trial, the surveillance and targetting of academics, national facial recognition surveillance by police cruisers, and then there's the unspeakable National Defence Authorisation Act which allows whoever is president personally to send state militias from one state into another, breaking the important posse comitatus act.

My criticisms of the US are really more a criticism of the increasingly materialistic culture that developed there during Reagan, and fundamentally I believe in the country as a powerful force for good, but this is changing. While most people don't know how lucky they are to live in an age dominated by America, I feel the benefits are more to be had outside of the US, but within the "Pax Americana" system.

Really I am just looking for reasons why the US character has changed so much since earlier decades. While to most British people Americans have always been seen as more serious, what we are witnessing now is something else. As I say at the start of my post - they seem disillusioned.