Irn-bru

I agree on both accounts, where is the democracy in the party at least.

Elvira

What on earth are you on about? We have a parliamentary democracy where the leader of the main party is the Prime Minister and head of government. This is the same in most countries.

I do not recall an election when Mrs Twatcher got the boot and John Major took over.

There was no party vote because no other candidate had sufficient support to make it worthwhile.

Adnams

An election was called shortly afterwards (if I am not befuddled) which is what Brown should do. Surely? And all this rubbish, their harping on about a new start, slate clean etc. The chancellor is one of the key members of govt so any cock ups over the last ten years Brown has been crucially involved in, the Brownites cant just now say its a new era and claim they had nothing to do with the mess of the NHS for example. Do they think we are all dumb as a stump as they say in CT??
</IMG>

Elvira

I believe John Major came to power in 1990 and the election was in 1992?

Brown and Bliar have been at each others throats for most of the time the latter was PM, so I'll give Brown the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

And whilst the NHS no doubt has a lot of problems - as, incidentally, have all the health care systems of the Western world - it would be gross exaggeration to say that it is in a mess.

Irn-bru

I am talking about that there seems to me to be a whitewash of him getting elected to the head of his party where no other candidates either where encouraged to stand or where up for a vote etc. Just think it would have helped Brown if he had an internal election to show that he was voted in by a majority of his party. If I was Brown I'd be encouraging others to stand as it would be transparent to all then that he got in on a vote.
Maybe my memory is slipping but don't remember not having an internal vote before for a party leader.

Re election realise that maybe they can't have one straight away, but to me at least it would make it more important for an internal vote in the labour party to happen.
Having no choice anywhere or seen to be in my mind isn't democratic. I think that it is a valid point to raise whether you are for or against Brown.

Adnams

Adnams

Was it really that long?? Fair dinkum.
The NHS is a mess if you ask me. Sis is head of a london borough NHS and all they ever get is directives from labour telling them to change this or change that and then cutting budgets and directing them to move money to more "politcally" sensitive i.e. vote winning departments. And what about the pensions raid? That was all Browns doing even though he was warned against it? I am neither for or against him but I think we will see more of the same just tarted up in a different way. Brown is the man of the stealth tax after all.

Elvira

Are you saying they should have had a vote even though it would have been completely pointless?

I did not notice a groundswell of support from the rank of file for another candidate.

So what exactly would have been the point, apart from a lot of labour party funds being wasted?

Elvira

Everywhere you look, health care and pensions are political hot potatoes.

Not sure how long you've been in the US, but the health care "system" here is much more sick than your average Brit can even imagine. The political shenanigans that go on here make my blood boil.

NB: What's wrong with directing scarce funds to areas that the public actually want?

Now, I do wish and hope that Brown will actually try and get to grips with this issue: either re-direct funds more appropriately (> hips and < Viagra + in-vitro kids...) or raise taxes to raise funding to average European levels. But this needs a public debate: are people actually willing to pay more tax for increased healthcare funding?

Adnams

He's been raising taxes for the last 10 years. I think the UK now spends 20% of tax payers money on the NHS, its not more money, its the political mis-managing that needs to be sorted. The meddling basically.

I think my problem with the whole coronation is that Blair and Brown stitched this up between themselves over dinner at the Ivy 15 or 20 years ago. Thats not right surely. ITs undemocratic and smacks of some kind of banana republic?!!

Been here five long long years and yes the health care here is buggered. Great if you have full insurance, which we do, and the level of service is fantastic then - unlike the NHS (waiting lists etc). But it is shocking and reprehensible that millions in this country are totally uninsured, thats morally wrong. At least in the UK you get something even if its a postcode lottery for decent care and the right drugs half the time.

Elvira

Can you provide some proof re. increase in taxation?

I don't know about the 20%. AFAIK the UK spends around 8% of GDP on the healthcare, compared to 9-12% in the rest of Europe,and 16% in the US. I myself have never waited for or been deprived of anything, although I acknowledge that there are some - albeit a minority - who have not been so lucky.

The NHS is the largest employer in the UK. I am not sure who it could be run without some degree of political 'meddling'. Are you familiar with the political meddling that goes on in, for instance, the German healthcare system? Or even Medicare, Medicaid and the VA...

I pay *significantly* more tax here than I ever did in the UK. And I get f'all for it (no health care for a start). Not to mention property tax - puts the council tax in the shade.

Now I know B + B made a deal many years ago. But that doesn't change the fact that there is currently no one in the government/party who stood even a fighting a chance of winning against Brown.

For all his faults, I think he is a safe pair of hands with a thorough understanding of economics (which can be said of very few politicians!), so I for one am glad to see him at # 10.

Adnams

Well thats an argument for socialised healthcare if I ever did hear one!

Check this out for an alternative view on the coronation: -

www.spectator.co.uk

Lycanthrop

Said the waitress at the Granita Restaurant that night...........

"Fish's off dear......."

Sally

As neither you nor Adnams are Labour supporters it is obvious you are going to say that, however the procedure was the same for the Tories. Putting up a lame-arse candidate just to make it look more "democratic" would no doubt have been decried as well.

The Conservative Party have an open goal for the next election -don't they?

Sally

Well you've left now so what's the problem? Let the British voters decide, should be no contest as Labour are so rubbish and hated.