WTF in America
#8641
Re: WTF in America
Most mental health calls are non-violent, and police should not be the first responders to them, trained mental health workers should be. Many when in a mental health crises do not respond well to police and police tend to escalate the situation.
Eugene, Oregon has a good approach to how they deal with mental health calls. The program is called CAHOOTS, it's funded by the City of Eugene, but operated and managed by a non-profit.
The teams that respond to mental health calls are made up of mental health crises workers and either an EMT, nurse or paramedic.
CAHOOTS are dispatched by 9-11 dispatchers or non-emergency dispatchers just like police, fire etc are, they train the dispatchers how to handle non-violent mental health calls, and if no violence or crime has been committed, CAHOOTS is dispatched instead of police.
“When a police officer arrives on scene in uniform, it has a tendency to make people nervous and escalate, especially if you’re in a mental or an emotional crisis" - Chris Skinner, Eugene Chief of Police.
In 2019, CAHOOTS responded to some 24,000 calls, guess how many needed police? 150, yes that's right out of 24,000 calls, only 150 actually needed police to attend.
Oh and the program saves the city roughly 8 million per year in public safety funds, and saves another $14 million in ambulance and ER costs.
This program isn't new either, the non-profit and city of Eugene started this way back in 1989.
https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2020...r-oregon-city/
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/05/us/ca...rnd/index.html
https://whitebirdclinic.org/cahoots/
City's that act like nothing can be done are simply being lazy, there is already a city with a proven track record with this program, every city in the US should be required to have this type of program to deal with mental health calls.
Eugene, Oregon has a good approach to how they deal with mental health calls. The program is called CAHOOTS, it's funded by the City of Eugene, but operated and managed by a non-profit.
The teams that respond to mental health calls are made up of mental health crises workers and either an EMT, nurse or paramedic.
CAHOOTS are dispatched by 9-11 dispatchers or non-emergency dispatchers just like police, fire etc are, they train the dispatchers how to handle non-violent mental health calls, and if no violence or crime has been committed, CAHOOTS is dispatched instead of police.
“When a police officer arrives on scene in uniform, it has a tendency to make people nervous and escalate, especially if you’re in a mental or an emotional crisis" - Chris Skinner, Eugene Chief of Police.
In 2019, CAHOOTS responded to some 24,000 calls, guess how many needed police? 150, yes that's right out of 24,000 calls, only 150 actually needed police to attend.
Oh and the program saves the city roughly 8 million per year in public safety funds, and saves another $14 million in ambulance and ER costs.
This program isn't new either, the non-profit and city of Eugene started this way back in 1989.
https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2020...r-oregon-city/
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/05/us/ca...rnd/index.html
https://whitebirdclinic.org/cahoots/
City's that act like nothing can be done are simply being lazy, there is already a city with a proven track record with this program, every city in the US should be required to have this type of program to deal with mental health calls.
This issue really should get as much attention as possible as it epitomizes many of the problems with the 'use of police' today.
#8642
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,157
Re: WTF in America
Interesting. In the numerous discussions about BLM and the police, the issue of removing police from 'inappropriate' tasks has come up. This would be a prime example - use the money to provide a better service with a better outcome, and lower cost. I'm sure the police would be overjoyed to see someone else take these calls.
Unfortunately, the word "defunding" totally fails to capture any of this. I'm sure whoever wrote the hashtag in the first place didn't know it would blow up the way it did, but it was a terrible choice that really has done a disservice to what could be achieved with more strategic allocation of funds.
#8643
Re: WTF in America
Yes, I think this is exactly the kind of program that would be a sensible "diversion" of police funds. It costs less than the police, is more effective, and frees up the police to tackle actual violent situations. It seems like an overwhelming win-win-win, so I don't know why everyone is throwing up their hands and saying nothing can be done.
Unfortunately, the word "defunding" totally fails to capture any of this. I'm sure whoever wrote the hashtag in the first place didn't know it would blow up the way it did, but it was a terrible choice that really has done a disservice to what could be achieved with more strategic allocation of funds.
Unfortunately, the word "defunding" totally fails to capture any of this. I'm sure whoever wrote the hashtag in the first place didn't know it would blow up the way it did, but it was a terrible choice that really has done a disservice to what could be achieved with more strategic allocation of funds.
#8644
Account Closed
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 0
Re: WTF in America
I am sure police unions are in a way one reason why city's haven't done what Eugene has, police have less calls = less police officers = less union members, the police unions and supporters have no incentive to want change.
CAHOOTS in Eugene in 2019, responded to approx 20% of total calls, so I would imagine they need less police officers overall because police have less calls, but the programs isn't new to Eugene, so its not a novel idea to them, its just the way things are.
Looks like CAHOOTS has spread a bit to also cover calls in parts of a neighboring city.
I took a intro to criminal justice class in 1999 for fun, and I doubt much as changed, so much time in that class was spent on how crime and the criminal justice system is good for the economy because it creates jobs. It was also like a Business 101 class in a way.
CAHOOTS in Eugene in 2019, responded to approx 20% of total calls, so I would imagine they need less police officers overall because police have less calls, but the programs isn't new to Eugene, so its not a novel idea to them, its just the way things are.
Looks like CAHOOTS has spread a bit to also cover calls in parts of a neighboring city.
I took a intro to criminal justice class in 1999 for fun, and I doubt much as changed, so much time in that class was spent on how crime and the criminal justice system is good for the economy because it creates jobs. It was also like a Business 101 class in a way.
#8645
Re: WTF in America
The problem with "defund the police" implies that the police are overfunded in the US and that a smaller police force would be desirable, however the statistics do not necessarily support that assertion.
From what I have been able to find on-line, in the US there are apparently 238 police officers/100,000 of population, comparable with the 211 in the UK, 188 in Canada, and 218 in Australia, however other western countries often have considerably more police (per 100k of population) than the US such as 295 in the Netherlands, 333 in Belgium, 381 in Germany, 429 in France, 456 in Italy, and 533 in Spain.
In short I don't think that the police budget is going to work as a source for funding of other programs as the US police force is already thinly spread compared to many countries. I am not saying that other programs are not worthy of being funded, just that trying to divert money from the police won't only sound bad to the law abiding electorate, it is probably not achievable in practice without gutting the police force.
From what I have been able to find on-line, in the US there are apparently 238 police officers/100,000 of population, comparable with the 211 in the UK, 188 in Canada, and 218 in Australia, however other western countries often have considerably more police (per 100k of population) than the US such as 295 in the Netherlands, 333 in Belgium, 381 in Germany, 429 in France, 456 in Italy, and 533 in Spain.
In short I don't think that the police budget is going to work as a source for funding of other programs as the US police force is already thinly spread compared to many countries. I am not saying that other programs are not worthy of being funded, just that trying to divert money from the police won't only sound bad to the law abiding electorate, it is probably not achievable in practice without gutting the police force.
#8646
Re: WTF in America
The problem with defund is that is assumes extra funds were given when dealing with mental health problems when they landed in the police lap. That wasn't the case it was just extra work taken on because there was no one else to do it, and no training was given either. I remember social workers coming into Kilburn and complaining about the way we dealt with mental heath cases, and getting very defensive when we suggested that could provide 24 hour cover and deal with the violent ones as well. If I was the Chief of a department in the US right now I would be instigating a policy that calls to people suffering a mental heath crises was a medical issue and to be dealt with as such. No police response at all. I doubt there is a police officer who would disagree with that.
Defund means less money and in most cases that means officers being laid off. Most cities are like ours, we have 2 officers on patrol with a supervisor. They only have a K9 Unit because for the last 12 years I have gone out and raised the money to 100% fund it. Less officers means less than 24 hour cover. It is a pity those that know f*** all about policing think less calls makes that OK. Just answering calls is fire brigade policing, not having time to be out there preventing stuff before it happens. If they want proper mental health cover, it will take extra fresh funds not robbing one to pay for another.
Defund means less money and in most cases that means officers being laid off. Most cities are like ours, we have 2 officers on patrol with a supervisor. They only have a K9 Unit because for the last 12 years I have gone out and raised the money to 100% fund it. Less officers means less than 24 hour cover. It is a pity those that know f*** all about policing think less calls makes that OK. Just answering calls is fire brigade policing, not having time to be out there preventing stuff before it happens. If they want proper mental health cover, it will take extra fresh funds not robbing one to pay for another.
#8647
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere between Vancouver & St Johns
Posts: 19,850
Re: WTF in America
The problem with defund is that is assumes extra funds were given when dealing with mental health problems when they landed in the police lap. That wasn't the case it was just extra work taken on because there was no one else to do it, and no training was given either. I remember social workers coming into Kilburn and complaining about the way we dealt with mental heath cases, and getting very defensive when we suggested that could provide 24 hour cover and deal with the violent ones as well. If I was the Chief of a department in the US right now I would be instigating a policy that calls to people suffering a mental heath crises was a medical issue and to be dealt with as such. No police response at all. I doubt there is a police officer who would disagree with that.
Defund means less money and in most cases that means officers being laid off. Most cities are like ours, we have 2 officers on patrol with a supervisor. They only have a K9 Unit because for the last 12 years I have gone out and raised the money to 100% fund it. Less officers means less than 24 hour cover. It is a pity those that know f*** all about policing think less calls makes that OK. Just answering calls is fire brigade policing, not having time to be out there preventing stuff before it happens. If they want proper mental health cover, it will take extra fresh funds not robbing one to pay for another.
Defund means less money and in most cases that means officers being laid off. Most cities are like ours, we have 2 officers on patrol with a supervisor. They only have a K9 Unit because for the last 12 years I have gone out and raised the money to 100% fund it. Less officers means less than 24 hour cover. It is a pity those that know f*** all about policing think less calls makes that OK. Just answering calls is fire brigade policing, not having time to be out there preventing stuff before it happens. If they want proper mental health cover, it will take extra fresh funds not robbing one to pay for another.
#8648
Re: WTF in America
.... Defund means less money and in most cases that means officers being laid off. Most cities are like ours, we have 2 officers on patrol with a supervisor. They only have a K9 Unit because for the last 12 years I have gone out and raised the money to 100% fund it. Less officers means less than 24 hour cover. It is a pity those that know f*** all about policing think less calls makes that OK. Just answering calls is fire brigade policing, not having time to be out there preventing stuff before it happens. If they want proper mental health cover, it will take extra fresh funds not robbing one to pay for another.
To which I would add, if you're not in a city then you have police coverage provided by sheriff's deputies. I don't know how many deputies are on patrol here at any one time, but it isn't many, and they cover several hundred square miles! It is difficult to imagine what cutting the budget for law enforcement would look like unless emergency coverage was scapped entirely and they set up community vigilante patrols.
Last edited by Pulaski; Sep 9th 2020 at 10:41 pm.
#8649
Re: WTF in America
That is totally F**ked Up. The mother said "When police arrived, Barton said her son ran away. She told KUTV that she heard someone yell "get down on the ground" three times, followed by several gunshots.
"Why didn't they tase him? Why didn't they shoot him with a rubber bullet?" Barton told the station. "He's a small child. Why don't you just tackle him? You are big police officers with massive amounts of resources.""
And you are right, you shouldn't have to call the cops for a situation like this; there should be medically trained people who can help in this type of situation.
"Why didn't they tase him? Why didn't they shoot him with a rubber bullet?" Barton told the station. "He's a small child. Why don't you just tackle him? You are big police officers with massive amounts of resources.""
And you are right, you shouldn't have to call the cops for a situation like this; there should be medically trained people who can help in this type of situation.
To which I would add, if you're not in a city then you have police coverage provided by sheriff's deputies. I don't know how many deputies are on patrol here at any one time, but it isn't many, and they cover several hundred square miles! It is difficult to imaging what cutting the budget for law enforcement would look like unless emergency coverage was scapped entirely and they set up community vigilante patrols.
Cities who have insurers that don't get involved conversely were suffering from recurrent issues, often from the same few officers.
I can't remember where I read the piece but if I were to hazard a guess it would be either the Beeb, CNN or the Atlantic as I've spent more time perusing their sites this week than others.
EDIT: I hate going back through my search history, four days ago and about a hundred articles back was this from NBC...
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...ments-n1233495
Last edited by zzrmark; Sep 9th 2020 at 10:45 pm.
#8650
Re: WTF in America
When I read that paragraph in the article my tiny brain did a huge wtf. Mother has called police, told them that he's unarmed and a youngster and when he gets shot she says why didn't they tase/rubber bullet him. In what civilised country would a mother, or any sane person, say that? .....
#8651
Re: WTF in America
I was thinking the same thing, and at the risk of being accused of blaming the victim (or at least his mother), what mother would call the police if her child was unarmed but having some sort of "episode"? Unfortunately I suspect that faced with a "difficult" individual the ambulance/ emergency medical staff would have called the police, and it is also quite possible that the 911 dispatcher sent the police even if they weren't requested.
If you really want to go down the rabbit hole on this one you need to find articles on the police killing of Owen Barton on January 2020 - father of the boy's mother...
Makes one wonder why she'd ever be inclined to dial 911...
#8652
Account Closed
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 0
Re: WTF in America
I was thinking the same thing, and at the risk of being accused of blaming the victim (or at least his mother), what mother would call the police if her child was unarmed but having some sort of "episode"? Unfortunately I suspect that faced with a "difficult" individual the ambulance/ emergency medical staff would have called the police, and it is also quite possible that the 911 dispatcher sent the police even if they weren't requested.
Even if you don't ask for police, dispatchers will dispatch them, with some exceptions like Eugene, Oregon which should be the model for every city in the US and Canada.
#8653
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,157
Re: WTF in America
In larger urban areas where basic coverage is not an issue, why not at least consider the Eugene model? Diverting mental health calls away from the police reduces their workload, true. But from the sounds of it, they are calls that (a) they don't want to be on, and (b) have poor outcomes. Does it really make good sense to keep on down this path just to keep their hours up?
Obviously not in the US, though.
Last edited by retzie; Sep 10th 2020 at 5:10 am.
#8654
Re: WTF in America
Another day in paradise!
(Image lifted from the top of the home page today a Charlotte TV web site - cropped, but not otherwise edited.)
(Image lifted from the top of the home page today a Charlotte TV web site - cropped, but not otherwise edited.)
#8655
Re: WTF in America
Non violent mental crises should always be treated as a medical emergency and dealt with as such. In fact I would also say violent mental crises as well. Let the mental health professionals deal with it, they shouldn't be allowed to abdicate part of their job because they might get hurt.