crg

Oh boy. Slanted statistics being propagated by the fine denizens of the People's Soviet Socialist Republic of San Franciskostan. Save the statistics.

How is gun crime in California? Considering it's a "may issue" state and not a "shall issue" state, people should be totally safe. Just disregard all of the home invasions, and street gangs.

Also, riots never happen in California. Nobody has ever been pulled out of their truck in broad daylight and had their head smashed in with a brick after the police department retreated from the area like a bunch of cowards to leave the public to fend for themselves.

Some store owners managed to save their own life and property by using their lawfully owned weapons. Do you want to take their guns away too?

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
-Mark Twain

anotherlimey

This, I assume, came from the same survey that everyone quotes from - the survey was flawed in that they counted people shot in the own homes by intruders by the intruder's weapon. It's just been twisted slightly. (ETA: See here - http://guncite.com/gun-control-kellermann-3times.html it may not be the study NG used, but it shows the problem)

Of course NG probably didn't say what the source was.

elfman

i don't remember if they quoted the source or not. But whoever it was I find it difficult to believe they could get away with claiming that a weapon brought along by an intruder could be counted as "kept in the home".

anotherlimey

Well the often cited Kellerman study, the link I just added above, is always quoted as "guns in home".

elfman

minor point - the bloke's name is actually Kellermann - but his critics usually seem to miss the last n. Reslult seems to be that if you google "kellerman study" you get loads of stuff trying to debunk it, but if you google "kellermann study" you seem to get a higher number of hits concurring with it.

chartreuse

So, weight of numbers is a valid means of determining correctness when it supports your argument (more search hits pro a dodgy study than anti) but not when it doesn't (more people in the US anti gun control than pro)?

elfman

err..
it was just a helpful hint for anyone who actually wanted to read what people on both sides of the argument thought

anotherlimey

At least Guncite uses the second 'n'! All those Google results seem to be people ranting about some NRA guy's comments on the study, which if I'm honest, do seem to be biased (obviously). The critique posted above gives good reasons not to trust the results.

What about this professor's statements?: http://www.guncite.com/gcwhoGK.html A lifelong Democrat and ACLU member.

Now who do we believe?

exvj

Bit of an anger problem there - you would certainly need checking out

chartreuse

And there, in a nutshell, is one of the problems with your hypothetical utopia. Who decides that there's an anger problem? Who does the checking out? Who makes the decision? The morons at the DMV? (NB - the ladies at our local DPS are anything but, but you know what I mean.) Some bent official taking backhanders from the mob? A politician with an agenda? The guy who ran a red light, hit you and is angry at you for telling the cops the truth, but just happens to work for the city? A hippy from CA, who just moved to the area and has no grasp of the regional culture?

I could go on, but I've bored even myself

exvj

The system in the Uk is that there is a right of appeal to a refusal.

All sorts of people make judgements about our future every day and they are all fallible humans

Employers/doctors/police/the USCIS/Driving test examiners etc etc

Almost all of these decisions have a far greater effect on our future than the refusal to have a handgun and many of them have no appeal. If a potential employer doesnt want fat people working there but doesn't state that as the reason, there is no appeal

So a system with build in checks and balances which keeps powerful weapons out of the hands of people who are consumed with hate and violence and aggression is perfectly reasonable and doesn't herald in a new soviet era

Most other developed countries run this very well and they are not less free than the US in reality

In fact they can even have a beer while sat on the beach !

elfman

with their tits out, in some places

exvj

exactly

the americans swoon at the thought of nip-nips in public

It's the start of a descent into hell or a new soviet era of depravity

I would love to get some of these cowboys to Ibiza in July

They have heard of nudist beaches, but the idea of it being normal to walk off an ordinary beach and buy a 99 while letting the sweet chariots swing low, is a freedom they will never know

land of the free - poppycock

anotherlimey

I'm curious, how long have you been in the US?

Leslie

Three weeks but he learned everything he needs to know from the TV machine.