Ethelred_the_Unready

Try as I might, I just can't fathom it. Why do so many Americans bash the poor so much and look down on them, seeking to ensure that that public welfare is either cut right back or eliminated altogether? While I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, not only do I not get it, but I find myself appalled by it.

For example, I stumbled upon this thread in a very popular forum:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/great...ink-about.html

For all our Daily Mail and Thatcherite idiots, I cannot fathom such disdain for the poor occurring in Britain, at least not towards the working poor.

Why do so many Americans think this way? Is it the individualistic roots of this country, insecurity, a fear that it might happen to them, pure ignorance or does it make some people feel good about themselves to bash the less fortunate?

I have tried debating it, only to be called a "bleeding heart liberal". If actually giving a shit about others makes me that, so be it. I don't even think it's about politics. These same wankers go to church every Sunday and are most likely anti-abortion, yet they are heartless and cold and as bad as anyone else, when push comes to shove.

I don't get this crap about how if you simply work hard, you will be successful. That may have applied 50+ years ago when life was simpler, but it doesn't apply now. Now it's a mixture of luck, the attributes which you're born with, who you know, what class you were born into and yes....obviously hard work does come into play, but lots of mega rich people are absolutely useless and will probably do less actual work in a lifetime than the average blue collar bloke who just wants to pay his bills will do in a week, yet HE is the bad guy.

I always thought that America would not have the same class division as the UK, but it feels worse here, because far more people seem to look down on the working class and I feel that it's much tougher here for someone born poor in the US to get ahead, unless they are truly gifted (athletically or intellectually). The social mobility stats have the UK and US roughly tied, but I would rather be poor in the UK. That speaks volumes for a country that prides itself on being a land of freedom and opportunity. I guess that depends on who your parents are.

Just trying to understand this weird country...9 years in. Is it a lost cause and should I just **** off ASAP, or is there solace to be found?

HarryTheSpider

I think that whilst many Americans have this disparaging view of 'the poor' I don't believe it is the majority, and I believe a significant number of those who do have a disparaging view would adopt a more understanding and reasoned position if they were confronted with some of the realities of 'the poor' and forced also to develop and then use some critical thinking skills.

I think the underlying reasons for so many having such a low view of the poor are very numerous and complex in their interrelationships. I struggle to get away from the strong opinion I have that a combination of sustained, unbalanced information, views of significant others, perhaps through home schooling by parents who are neither competent to teach nor following any kind of broad and objective curriculum, prolonged watching of biased TV, listening to the extremists on talk radio, and so on...

I don't believe it is a lost cause, but will look that way for a while yet...

Speedwell

To the best of my knowledge, the part of the country that is below average in income "hate the poor" (i.e. support policies and practices that directly disadvantage the already disadvantaged) in greater proportion than do those whose income is above average. Whether this is due to self-esteem issues, belief that the magic "hard work and clean living" spell success, belief that anyone CAN succeed if they try hard enough, lack of education, or just plain old ignorance, it explains much.

In my own case, the time in my life when I was most politically right-wing was when I didn't have the proverbial pot to piss in. I was angry with myself for being a failure and felt I didn't "deserve" a share in society's productivity. As I started to become more successful and rose in socioeconomic class, I also became more politically mature and willing to give of what I had. I suspect those with little just can't get their heads around anyone giving up any of what they do have.

RoadWarriorFromLP

In today's political lexicon, "poor" has become a GOP euphemism for "minorities". You have to understand the code; this is how these prejudices are communicated now that racial slurs are out of fashion.

Captain Cheesestick

Ethelred_the_Unready

No pride in modesty or just being "average" even.

Great points. I never looked at it that way. There is indeed far more working class pride in the UK, which would partly explain why Britain has similar levels of social mobility. I think is is much easier to climb the ladder in Britain mainly because higher education is still much cheaper and healthcare is free, but many people simply have little or no desire to.

In the US, blue collar work and blue collar workers are almost looked down on by many. How many kids do you know who would aspire to become plumbers, mechanics, welders or carpenters? This is a shame, because a mate of mine back home makes a very decent living as a plumber. I honestly believe that there should be far more trade schools here so that people have the option to learn a trade and get something equivalent to a C&G, rather than coerce people into all going for the same business-related degree. Unfortunately, many blue collar jobs simply don't pay well enough here either.

What irks me is the very scary attitudes towards the poor though. In the forum thread I posted a link to, someone compared such attitudes with the attitudes of Germans to the Jews during and prior to WWII. Having witnessed a lot of rhetoric here spewed from many outlets, I must say that I am inclined to agree.

Ethelred_the_Unready

I agree with this also, since many poor Americans just so happen to be black people living in inner cities. These people are generally out of sight and out of mind to Mr & Mrs Suburban-White-Picket-Fence.

There's definitely some racism in there. No one can really deny it, given the relatively recent history of segregation here.

Ethelred_the_Unready

I agree HtS. I'd like to see many of those who systematically bash the poor spend a few weeks or months in those blighted inner cities they usually avoid. I have seen many US inner cities and as bad as parts of the UK are, the scale of depravation, crime and hopelessness is much greater, coupled with the fact that such places have far less sense of community and are downright dangerous.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. This country isn't a level playing field and it seems to be that either people strive ridiculously to get to the too or they become defeatist and give up.

Ethelred_the_Unready

That's interesting. I kind of feel the same way, but all I ask for is at least to have access to affordable healthcare. I don't really care to own a big house (or any house for that matter). I don't need money to entertain myself.

HarryTheSpider

My understanding is that higher education (HE) here in the US, if you go 'in state' is in the $5-10k bracket for most states. In the UK, most universities are charging £9k, the max allowed, or around $15k. I am given to believe the quality of HE in the UK is, on average, higher, more useful, than in the US.

Our history is different - the US is perceived as having been built by people who pulled themselves up by their boot straps, penniless immigrants with a dream and a lot of grit, etc etc. the fact that they had to work together seems loston most. In the UK, once we got over our Civil War, and set about building an empire, it was farmers, then the industrial revolution etc - we didn't have to tame a huge land, and we had the organising and civilising input of the Romans, as did the rest of Europe... While the US was still figuring out how to be racist in a more industrially efficient way, and began to see the rise of the 'Robber Barons' we had schools emerging as we currently know them, public libraries, the beginnings of what we would know as the Factories Act (working conditions), the Enlightenment, then the Victorian era. The US has largely missed out on this, jumping from frontier land to world superpower in around a century.

I also note how the effects of directly experiencing WW2 permeates society - the US was effectively untouched by WW2 - no direct bombing of consequence, no blackout, limited rationing, etc etc. the peoples of Europe have a shared experience of being caught in the middle of a vicious war. I am half German, and have roots in Plymouth (the original one ) and Kiel (N Germany) - both centres 85% destroyed by bombing. When I tell people this they just can't comprehend beyond the facts, and why should they... My point is that the peoples of Europe have directly experienced things that make us less trusting of powerful individuals (we had robber barons too, but I refer more to Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini etc), and more likely to choose a solution based on interdependence rather than independence, hence more of a social democrat leaning.

I think we're still seeing growing pains in the US. It is a young country and frequently acts like it. As allegedly said by the Chinese Ambassador to France at the 200 year celebrations of the French Revolution, when asked what he thought about the revolution, replied that it was to early to tell... I think the same can be said for the US...

I said elsewhere that the US is an experiment, unique in the world. It is a work in progress. The first 250 years have been interesting, sometimes turbulent. The next 250 will also be...but I have hope...I just might not see too much change in my life time... Mind you, in 1988 I said the Soviet Union could not last more than another 70 yrs... 3 yrs later it was history, so what do I know?

Speedwell

I'm completely in agreement with you. My husband is working class, and I am proud of him and respect him. A good life is just a happy life, and happiness is really at bottom freedom from mental and physical pain, which depends on healthcare when necessary.

However, as the old document has it, in this country we have the fundamental right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (not necessarily the thing itself). As I sometimes point out to my brother (who has the meanest possible attitude toward the poor), without your health, you have neither life (especially if you're DEAD), liberty (especially if you are shackled to a bed by illness, or if you live in virtual slavery to crushing medical debt), nor the possibility of happiness (particularly if your mental health is affected).

Leslie

Exactly this.

thinbrit

It is important to make a distinction between those who are poor, and those who are happy to coast through life accepting handouts with no intention of being a productive member of society.

Maybe it is our geographical differences, or cultural differences in the 'South'. Here in my small city (pop 1,200) we have lots of hard working poor people (about 13% live below the poverty line), I see no evidence of them being "bashed" or "looked down upon". I am a councilman for my city, and have met a very large portion of my community (only those who hid behind their curtains when I canvassed every property escaped me ). Abject poverty in some of my communities households means we have regular attendees to our food bank. Interspersed between the trailer homes and modest homes, are large grand homes. I see no evidence of those who have looking down on those who have not.

I do see a distain for those who leech off society, taking resources from the genuinely needy. Some of these people are poor, others not.

I also see a cultural difference on state handouts over here. It is not uncommon to meet those who illegally claim social security benefits or not declare income, yet are proud to share that fact. I find it difficult not to scream "its my taxes you are abusing". There seems to be some misconception that they are only ripping off the 'government' and not their neighbors.

I bought hay from one gentleman who would only accept cash. $2,500 at a time. He openly told me he was claiming disability benefits, shortly after showing me his classic car he was restoring, and loading my hay trailer with his new model Bobcat. I was one of many of his customers. I hand calculated he was taking $14,000 per cutting, with 4 cuttings per season. This is on the one extreme. At the other end, my neighbor claims disability benefit , her property taxes are reduced. She works two days a week in town (for cash) and cleans our home and another home every week, again for cash. She has no qualms in telling us she has to take cash because she is on benefits.

So is the distain towards poor people, or those abusing the welfare system. Anecdotal, but in my instance it is the latter.

Leslie

How exactly does that work?

thinbrit

My neighbor in the example I gave. She is fit to work, but chooses to work small cash jobs. As a result, she is 'poor'. She is happy to live a 'poor' lifestyle, so long as it is supported by welfare and not having to work a real job.