2020 Election
Oct 24th 2020, 12:56 pm
#4741
WTF?
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Homeostasis
Posts: 79,367
Re: 2020 Election
Frankly, with the circumstances being what they are, I would surprised if a single debate moved the needle an inch in any direction. I just find it hard to believe that there are undecided voters out there waiting to watch the debates to decide how to cast their votes.
In other news, some asshole stole my Biden Harris yard sign today
In other news, some asshole stole my Biden Harris yard sign today
I'll be early voting tomorrow.
Oct 24th 2020, 1:11 pm
#4742
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: 2020 Election
Furious liberals demand CNN fire Obama adviser Van Jones for saying Trump 'doesn't get credit' for the 'good things' he has done for the black community
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8874461/Van-Jones-says-Trump-doesnt-credit-good-things-African-Americans.htmlAnybody familiar with Van Jones's work will find this to be a very surprising turn of events.
Oct 24th 2020, 1:38 pm
#4743
Account Closed
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 0
Re: 2020 Election
Furious liberals demand CNN fire Obama adviser Van Jones for saying Trump 'doesn't get credit' for the 'good things' he has done for the black community
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8874461/Van-Jones-says-Trump-doesnt-credit-good-things-African-Americans.htmlAnybody familiar with Van Jones's work will find this to be a very surprising turn of events.
Let's read the whole article shall we...
But Jones then said that Trump’s actions made it harder for the public to give him credit.
‘But the reason he doesn’t is because he also says the most incendiary stuff, he retweets white nationalists, and he violates the number one rule of blackness, which is, I don’t mess with people who mess with people I don’t mess with,’ Jones said.
‘In other words, I’m not friends with people who are friends of my enemies.
‘And so the black community can appreciate some of the stuff he’s done, but when they see him playing footsie on Twitter with these white nationalist organizations, it just wipes it all out.’
‘But the reason he doesn’t is because he also says the most incendiary stuff, he retweets white nationalists, and he violates the number one rule of blackness, which is, I don’t mess with people who mess with people I don’t mess with,’ Jones said.
‘In other words, I’m not friends with people who are friends of my enemies.
‘And so the black community can appreciate some of the stuff he’s done, but when they see him playing footsie on Twitter with these white nationalist organizations, it just wipes it all out.’
Oct 24th 2020, 1:43 pm
#4744
WTF?
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Homeostasis
Posts: 79,367
Re: 2020 Election
Biden’s performance was on a par with the last debate. The difference was Trump dialled it right back and gave Biden enough rope to hang himself. As you say oil was a trap that Biden walked right into - Biden can forget about swinging Texas now - but also Trump’s lines of attack regarding Biden’s record on race relations was effective. The painful silence following ‘we had a Republican Congress’ spoke volumes. Biden did better on COVID but I can’t help think that the takeaway will be that Trump wants to open things up while Biden wants to continue the lockdown. Overall I felt Trump did a better job on appealing to voters in the swing states.
But I'm glad you mentioned the whole "open things up" because it reminded me of a statement you made a few months ago (see below) about how covid affects children. You were asked some thoughtful and polite questions after this remark but you disappeared (maybe you had to go into quarantine?) so, now that you're back, I'd like to see your data on children and school re-openings. Thanks.
FWIW everybody wants to reopen. Texas is reopened and the numbers are shooting back up. It's everywhere again. Regardless, some of us never locked-down, we weren't given that option. We're all working but those of us who can't work from home are getting a little tired of dying so that you can have your precious economy. Why is it that those who are beating the "reopen" drum, never offer a plan on how to do it safely? The Trump plan of "learning to live with it" isn't working.
What does "affect" mean in this context? Your graph only showed hospitalization rates by age. Do you have data for the asymptomatic infection rate in children? Or data on the transmission rate (likelihood in percentages) from asymptomatic children to (1) other children (2) adults.
This is an interesting discussion, and goes to the crux of the 'school' debate. BIP's point is, I think, fairly reasonable in that, I think everyone can agree that children are unlikely to suffer significantly from the virus, and if they were to return to school, we wouldn't be seeing children's bodies piling up in body bags. But Leslie's point is that, just because children don't 'suffer', they are still highly likely to be transmission vectors, whether due to fully asymptomatic spread or due to 'only mild symptoms'. In either case, if children are 'carriers' and 'spreaders', then we have to worry about their ability to continue the growth of the virus (through parents and teachers).
My own niece, who has two young kids (4 and 6) is extremely eager to see them both back in school, and in fact they both returned last week (UK). In her view, the social damage done by home isolation outweighs her concerns about the spread of the disease - rightly or wrongly.
My own niece, who has two young kids (4 and 6) is extremely eager to see them both back in school, and in fact they both returned last week (UK). In her view, the social damage done by home isolation outweighs her concerns about the spread of the disease - rightly or wrongly.
Oct 24th 2020, 1:47 pm
#4745
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Apr 2014
Location: Lauren's Co. SC by way of Palmetto, Florida
Posts: 3,265
Re: 2020 Election
<Snip>
The point I'm making is that if this election is a fight for the "working class" or "middle class" (horrible use of monoliths but it's how we describe certain income brackets) then I would venture to say that oil nostalgia is a couple of generations too late. Healthcare and the service industry ...
<Snip>
The point I'm making is that if this election is a fight for the "working class" or "middle class" (horrible use of monoliths but it's how we describe certain income brackets) then I would venture to say that oil nostalgia is a couple of generations too late. Healthcare and the service industry ...
<Snip>
In the UK I know for certain that, as the stepson of a teacher, I grew up in a lower middle class home. I have worked all my life with my hands, which makes me working class. I've always considered myself as working class, no college education (although I did do a year's stint as a part-time lecturer in my twenties at a technical college...) and yet in the years before I emigrated I was earning more than twice the salary of my lower middle class, head of department, step father.
I still consider myself working class in the US, as an employee I don't make as much as my wife who has 30 years teaching under her belt. Between us we gross nearly six figures, which some media outlets would say put us squarely in the middle class bracket. Fortunately, we don't quite live paycheck to check but nor do we have a yard crammed with boats, swimming pools, ATV's, motorcycles or any of the other trappings I'd consider part of a Floridian middle class life style.
Listening to some media outlets, they'd have us believe that, you qualify as middle class if you aren't homeless and the higher earner in the home doesn't work as a supermarket cashier, somewhat of a low bar.
So, how does one decide which US class divide one falls into, as it's not nearly as clear cut as the UK's education and landed status? Politically speaking, in the UK the only working class peoples that fell outside the union orientated days of the Labour party were farmers with acreages in the double digits and up, the landed classes were Tory and the middle classes could go either way. Nowadays, automation and greater numbers headed to college and uni have left those or us still in manual work with far greater earnings and lifestyle potential than our parents and grandparents in similar work situations.
It has been interesting to see how working class folks think politically when they are represented by two parties that are both right of centre.
Oct 24th 2020, 2:10 pm
#4748
WTF?
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Homeostasis
Posts: 79,367
Re: 2020 Election
Where is the line between those two class groups in the US?
In the UK I know for certain that, as the stepson of a teacher, I grew up in a lower middle class home. I have worked all my life with my hands, which makes me working class. I've always considered myself as working class, no college education (although I did do a year's stint as a part-time lecturer in my twenties at a technical college...) and yet in the years before I emigrated I was earning more than twice the salary of my lower middle class, head of department, step father.
I still consider myself working class in the US, as an employee I don't make as much as my wife who has 30 years teaching under her belt. Between us we gross nearly six figures, which some media outlets would say put us squarely in the middle class bracket. Fortunately, we don't quite live paycheck to check but nor do we have a yard crammed with boats, swimming pools, ATV's, motorcycles or any of the other trappings I'd consider part of a Floridian middle class life style.
Listening to some media outlets, they'd have us believe that, you qualify as middle class if you aren't homeless and the higher earner in the home doesn't work as a supermarket cashier, somewhat of a low bar.
So, how does one decide which US class divide one falls into, as it's not nearly as clear cut as the UK's education and landed status? Politically speaking, in the UK the only working class peoples that fell outside the union orientated days of the Labour party were farmers with acreages in the double digits and up, the landed classes were Tory and the middle classes could go either way. Nowadays, automation and greater numbers headed to college and uni have left those or us still in manual work with far greater earnings and lifestyle potential than our parents and grandparents in similar work situations.
It has been interesting to see how working class folks think politically when they are represented by two parties that are both right of centre.
In the UK I know for certain that, as the stepson of a teacher, I grew up in a lower middle class home. I have worked all my life with my hands, which makes me working class. I've always considered myself as working class, no college education (although I did do a year's stint as a part-time lecturer in my twenties at a technical college...) and yet in the years before I emigrated I was earning more than twice the salary of my lower middle class, head of department, step father.
I still consider myself working class in the US, as an employee I don't make as much as my wife who has 30 years teaching under her belt. Between us we gross nearly six figures, which some media outlets would say put us squarely in the middle class bracket. Fortunately, we don't quite live paycheck to check but nor do we have a yard crammed with boats, swimming pools, ATV's, motorcycles or any of the other trappings I'd consider part of a Floridian middle class life style.
Listening to some media outlets, they'd have us believe that, you qualify as middle class if you aren't homeless and the higher earner in the home doesn't work as a supermarket cashier, somewhat of a low bar.
So, how does one decide which US class divide one falls into, as it's not nearly as clear cut as the UK's education and landed status? Politically speaking, in the UK the only working class peoples that fell outside the union orientated days of the Labour party were farmers with acreages in the double digits and up, the landed classes were Tory and the middle classes could go either way. Nowadays, automation and greater numbers headed to college and uni have left those or us still in manual work with far greater earnings and lifestyle potential than our parents and grandparents in similar work situations.
It has been interesting to see how working class folks think politically when they are represented by two parties that are both right of centre.
This is a fun little thingy. It doesn't really answers all of these questions but it might give us an agreed upon terminology ....
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...-middle-class/
Oct 24th 2020, 2:13 pm
#4750
He/him
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: WA
Posts: 18,839
Re: 2020 Election
In the US, working class, if it exists at all, seems associated with industry, blue collar, and thus a thing if the past. The US mythology of a class-less society has everyone who can live from one job as middle class, a definition so broad it is a euphemism for "us" for everyone, apart from people too stupid, corrupt, or conniving to be us.
The establishment of a society empty of an aristocracy, by name or title, has of course helped foster this view of a society composed of a unitary class. The best solution to class struggle is to eliminate class, whether by equality, or by nomenclature.
The establishment of a society empty of an aristocracy, by name or title, has of course helped foster this view of a society composed of a unitary class. The best solution to class struggle is to eliminate class, whether by equality, or by nomenclature.
Oct 24th 2020, 5:22 pm
#4751
Account Closed
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 0
Re: 2020 Election
I'd rather have 90k a year in Nashville than 90k a year in San Francisco, same income, but you will probably struggle a bit in San Francisco where could have a big house and live pretty nicely in Nashville, but I would gather it might be harder to make 90k in Nashville though.
The income used to determine things should be based on location, what is poverty level in California could be living comfortable in Mississippi.
The US is too big and too vast with too many different levels of cost of living to have a one size fits all anything, same with min wage, $10/hr might be decent in Mississippi, but would be woefully inadequate in California.
Canadian's making $96,000 or more are in the top 10% of income earners, some will argue 96,000 is middle class, but is the top 10% really middle class?
The Prime Minister a couple years ago when asked who the middle class was defined it as $44,000 to $89,000 which actually seems pretty realistic.
The income used to determine things should be based on location, what is poverty level in California could be living comfortable in Mississippi.
The US is too big and too vast with too many different levels of cost of living to have a one size fits all anything, same with min wage, $10/hr might be decent in Mississippi, but would be woefully inadequate in California.
Canadian's making $96,000 or more are in the top 10% of income earners, some will argue 96,000 is middle class, but is the top 10% really middle class?
The Prime Minister a couple years ago when asked who the middle class was defined it as $44,000 to $89,000 which actually seems pretty realistic.
Oct 24th 2020, 6:15 pm
#4752
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Apr 2014
Location: Lauren's Co. SC by way of Palmetto, Florida
Posts: 3,265
Re: 2020 Election
I think you've hit on exactly what I was alluding to ... it's not a monolith. Your income, in Florida, gives you more financial security than the same income would in other areas of the country, but you're still not completely financially secure. It also has a lot to do with the support that people get from their families when starting out in life. As a teenager, I believed that if your parents could buy you a car, you were rich. I've dipped in and out of working poor, working class and middle class for my entire life. Things can change so quickly and they often do.
This is a fun little thingy. It doesn't really answers all of these questions but it might give us an agreed upon terminology ....
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...-middle-class/
This is a fun little thingy. It doesn't really answers all of these questions but it might give us an agreed upon terminology ....
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...-middle-class/
In the US, working class, if it exists at all, seems associated with industry, blue collar, and thus a thing if the past. The US mythology of a class-less society has everyone who can live from one job as middle class, a definition so broad it is a euphemism for "us" for everyone, apart from people too stupid, corrupt, or conniving to be us.
The establishment of a society empty of an aristocracy, by name or title, has of course helped foster this view of a society composed of a unitary class. The best solution to class struggle is to eliminate class, whether by equality, or by nomenclature.
The establishment of a society empty of an aristocracy, by name or title, has of course helped foster this view of a society composed of a unitary class. The best solution to class struggle is to eliminate class, whether by equality, or by nomenclature.
Oct 24th 2020, 7:53 pm
#4753
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 13,114
Re: 2020 Election
Oh Boy - I'm just listening to Obama give a speech right now. What a f**ing amazing speaker he is! There's a danger that it will remind everyone that Biden can't even come close to giving this kind of speech, but I think overall it just shows how bad Trump is. Really worth a listen, if you can find it. God, I miss Obama!
Oct 24th 2020, 8:48 pm
#4754
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 13,114
Re: 2020 Election
This is a bit of a shocker! I really don't like Lou Dobbs, but it seems even he has some soul.
https://www.businessinsider.com/lou-...ection-2020-10
https://www.businessinsider.com/lou-...ection-2020-10
Fox host Lou Dobbs says 'I don't know why anyone' would vote for Sen. Lindsey Graham
Oct 24th 2020, 8:56 pm
#4755
Account Closed
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 0
Re: 2020 Election
This is a bit of a shocker! I really don't like Lou Dobbs, but it seems even he has some soul.
https://www.businessinsider.com/lou-...ection-2020-10
https://www.businessinsider.com/lou-...ection-2020-10
Fox host Lou Dobbs says 'I don't know why anyone' would vote for Sen. Lindsey Graham
Lincoln Project agrees with Lou.