2020 Election

Old Sep 5th 2020, 6:30 pm
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by zzrmark View Post
I would like to think that when my time comes I can look back and say that the bigots, racists, bullies, oppressors, et al knew that I found them to be vile examples of humanity to be spoken against whenever I got the opportunity. I am not so much a Democrat as I am an Anti-Trumper but I've found that the best way to get a job done right is to use the best available tools. My mind might be troubled with thoughts that I could have done more but it will never be troubled by the thought that I should have done something.

'First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me'.
Martin Niemöller
Thank you for posting that historic quote. It's one of my all time favorite writings. More people need to remember those words before thinking only about how they wish to make choices. Getting involved is never just about me only. That is the reason why my family and I are in Michigan canvassing through the election. My group and my family were originally suppose to run the Wisconsin effort but a good friend asked if I'd be willing to switch assignments for family reasons. I must say it really does feel awesome here in Michigan. I have not seen this many Democrats since we were living in the northern region of the country decades ago. In Florida I would definitely see a lot of Trump signs compared to this northern state. And people are for the most part comfortable expressing their sentiments regards why they plan to vote and who for. But one thing I've noticed is the effect of Trump's horrible comments about our Troops. I've spoken to a few older Vets here in Michigan that told me they no longer support Trump because of the cumulative comments from Trump about our Troops. Some are Vietnam veterans. This last blunder is seriously damaging to Trump.

As a side note, the weather in Michigan is amazing! Not hot at all and with zero humidity. I can get use to this. Between 68- 73 degrees some days. My beautiful wife is saying this is how UK weather will be, while looking over at me. I didn't say a word. A wise husband knows when to say nothing.

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Old Sep 5th 2020, 7:13 pm
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
People can be for the idea that Black Lives Matter, and against the actions of some protestors.
Perfect measured sentiment. I 1000% support the Black Lives Matter movement because I'm against ethnic oppression of any form. That is a big reason why so many Americans have heavily supported peace in Ireland because the formation of respect and peace among all people is extremely important. And we can support Ireland while still being close friends with the UK.
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Old Sep 5th 2020, 7:15 pm
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
Nobody needs your sympathy, the people in the video don't need your sympathy.
What is a problem is people claiming that they will ignore centuries of systemic oppression because someone's dinning experience was uncomfortable.
People can be for the idea that Black Lives Matter, and against the actions of some protestors.
And when I hear BLM leaders or politicians denouncing these actions, I will be more willing to offer my support to them. Please post some examples of BLM leadership saying this is not acceptable.
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Old Sep 5th 2020, 7:31 pm
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
And when I hear BLM leaders or politicians denouncing these actions, I will be more willing to offer my support to them. Please post some examples of BLM leadership saying this is not acceptable.
You are doing it again, you can be against centuries of systemic oppression and against the leadership of a particular group. you can be pro black lives matter, you can be pro-BLM, and against any individuals of whatever organization they claim to represent. You can be against any (or all) of the organizations that use the words "Black Lives Matter" and still think that black lives matter.
Or you can continue to focus on individuals and not a message or ideal. It is a tactic used for centuries by oppressors against the oppressed. Look at the words or actions of a sub-set chosen by the oppressor class to paint the oppressed as criminal, anti-social or whatever justification is needed to maintain the status quo.
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Old Sep 5th 2020, 7:38 pm
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by UkWinds5353 View Post
As a side note, the weather in Michigan is amazing! Not hot at all and with zero humidity. I can get use to this. Between 68- 73 degrees some days. My beautiful wife is saying this is how UK weather will be, while looking over at me. I didn't say a word. A wise husband knows when to say nothing.
My in-laws back in the UK had their fire lit last weekend
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Old Sep 5th 2020, 7:44 pm
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
You are doing it again, you can be against centuries of systemic oppression and against the leadership of a particular group. you can be pro black lives matter, you can be pro-BLM, and against any individuals of whatever organization they claim to represent. You can be against any (or all) of the organizations that use the words "Black Lives Matter" and still think that black lives matter.
Or you can continue to focus on individuals and not a message or ideal. It is a tactic used for centuries by oppressors against the oppressed. Look at the words or actions of a sub-set chosen by the oppressor class to paint the oppressed as criminal, anti-social or whatever justification is needed to maintain the status quo.
I am most certainly "against centuries of systemic oppression", and I support the ideals of BLM. But if we want to get rid of Trump, and see BLM make significant progress, it would seem expedient for any reasonable person to condemn the actions in question. What I am observing, and simply cannot comprehend, is why BLM seems to be given a free-pass when it comes to their actions. It's as if any criticism of them is viewed as being heretical. It should be possible to have a message that says, 'we oppose oppression; we oppose systemic racism; but we also condemn violence and destruction'.
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Old Sep 5th 2020, 7:49 pm
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
. It should be possible to have a message that says, 'we oppose oppression; we oppose systemic racism; but we also condemn violence and destruction'.
It would have been nice if your earlier posts had phrased it like this, to have avoided confusion. (I may have missed it, if you had already done that). I am seeing what you are saying from many people, including from people such as Biden. Its not just possible, it is common.
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Old Sep 5th 2020, 7:55 pm
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
And when I hear BLM leaders or politicians denouncing these actions, I will be more willing to offer my support to them. Please post some examples of BLM leadership saying this is not acceptable.
You know there is a great resource at your fingertips called the internet? Google being just one example for finding stuff. Two minutes found these. Now if I were to limit my search to posts from the Loyal White Knights I'd probably not find anything.

https://kutv.com/news/local/utah-bla...sm-at-protests

https://time.com/4400330/st-paul-pro...-lives-matter/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ts/3317862001/

Now for your task, I'd like you to point me towards one, just one, group of people who have never had one of their members involved in some kind of wrongdoing - stillborn babies don't count.
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Old Sep 5th 2020, 8:29 pm
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by UkWinds5353 View Post
Perfect measured sentiment. I 1000% support the Black Lives Matter movement because I'm against ethnic oppression of any form. That is a big reason why so many Americans have heavily supported peace in Ireland because the formation of respect and peace among all people is extremely important. And we can support Ireland while still being close friends with the UK.
IRA sympathizers in the US helped to arm/finance the IRA.

Originally Posted by Olly_ View Post
My in-laws back in the UK had their fire lit last weekend
My in-laws always went on holiday 2nd and 3rd week in August. At some point during that time we always had to put the central heating on.
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Old Sep 5th 2020, 8:31 pm
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by zzrmark View Post
You know there is a great resource at your fingertips called the internet? Google being just one example for finding stuff. Two minutes found these. Now if I were to limit my search to posts from the Loyal White Knights I'd probably not find anything.

https://kutv.com/news/local/utah-bla...sm-at-protests

https://time.com/4400330/st-paul-pro...-lives-matter/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ts/3317862001/

Now for your task, I'd like you to point me towards one, just one, group of people who have never had one of their members involved in some kind of wrongdoing - stillborn babies don't count.
The first link is amusing - from Utah. It's nice to see Utah BLM leaders condemning violence. Have you been to Utah? I'll leave it at that. The second link - St Paul - good to see condemnation there, but another rather mild city. How about Chicago - https://www.wbez.org/stories/winning...2-04cceba0d322
Ariel Atkins: "A lot of people are really attacking our pages. They’re like, ‘Oh, you support the looters.’ And yeah, we do, 100%. That’s reparations." "I don’t care. I will support the looters ‘till the end of the day." Fact checking - https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/blm-organizer-loot/ " "

The last link you posted ("Fact check: Democrats have condemned violence linked to BLM, anti-fascist protests") does say this:
On May 31, the fifth night of demonstrations, former Vice President Joe Biden, the party’s presumptive nominee, wrote in a statement that protesting police brutality is “right and necessary” and the “American response."

“But burning down communities and needless destruction is not,” Biden wrote. “Violence that endangers lives is not. Violence that guts and shutters businesses that serve the community is not.”


Now, that USA today article was published August 13. So in an article August 13, we have one instance where Biden 'wrote' a condemnation on May 31. I think it's pretty telling that they had to go back to something WRITTEN 70+ days prior in order to find a condemnation. He should be pounding the podium and stating this in televised presentations all the time.


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Old Sep 5th 2020, 8:45 pm
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
The first link is amusing - from Utah. It's nice to see Utah BLM leaders condemning violence. Have you been to Utah? I'll leave it at that. The second link - St Paul - good to see condemnation there, but another rather mild city. How about Chicago - https://www.wbez.org/stories/winning...2-04cceba0d322
Ariel Atkins: "A lot of people are really attacking our pages. They’re like, ‘Oh, you support the looters.’ And yeah, we do, 100%. That’s reparations." "I don’t care. I will support the looters ‘till the end of the day." Fact checking - https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/blm-organizer-loot/ " "

The last link you posted ("Fact check: Democrats have condemned violence linked to BLM, anti-fascist protests") does say this:
On May 31, the fifth night of demonstrations, former Vice President Joe Biden, the party’s presumptive nominee, wrote in a statement that protesting police brutality is “right and necessary” and the “American response."

“But burning down communities and needless destruction is not,” Biden wrote. “Violence that endangers lives is not. Violence that guts and shutters businesses that serve the community is not.”


Now, that USA today article was published August 13. So in an article August 13, we have one instance where Biden 'wrote' a condemnation on May 31. I think it's pretty telling that they had to go back to something WRITTEN 70+ days prior in order to find a condemnation. He should be pounding the podium and stating this in televised presentations all the time.
I acknowledge your moving goal posts
"Trump and allies [and Steerpike] keep accusing Biden of not condemning violence — shortly after Biden condemns violence"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...emns-violence/
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Old Sep 5th 2020, 9:01 pm
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
I acknowledge your moving goal posts
"Trump and allies [and Steerpike] keep accusing Biden of not condemning violence — shortly after Biden condemns violence"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...emns-violence/
I am observing that Biden's condemnations are much less forceful and frequent than they need to be. Trump and his allies lie and twist everything, so I pay no attention to them.
This is a telling quote from the article you posted: "The Trump argument seems to be that Biden isn’t condemning the violence in the terms he would prefer — specifically that it should be more focused on left-wing extremists, anarchists and antifa. Democrats, though, are reluctant to zero in on those groups, because they worry that it legitimizes the often-hyperbolic claims about just how prevalent they are in the scenes across the country"
I think that sums up the problem. I'm sure you recall the shit Trump justifiably got for his remarks about the Charlottesville demonstrations - his 'fine people on both sides' comment. https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/15/polit...lay/index.html . I see a parallel here; Biden does condemn violence but he would call out BLM or any group as he is scared to alienate his voters ... not totally unlike Trump.
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Old Sep 5th 2020, 11:07 pm
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by UkWinds5353 View Post
Perfect measured sentiment. I 1000% support the Black Lives Matter movement because I'm against ethnic oppression of any form. That is a big reason why so many Americans have heavily supported peace in Ireland because the formation of respect and peace among all people is extremely important. And we can support Ireland while still being close friends with the UK.
Not sure what you mean about “supporting Ireland.” Most people in the UK support Ireland, and certainly the British and Irish governments “support” each other. UK & Ireland are two countries with a very close relationship, intertwined economies, very large numbers of British people live in Ireland, and vice versa. So why on earth would anyone think it a problem that the US supports Ireland?
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Old Sep 6th 2020, 12:35 am
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Default Re: 2020 Election

This would appear to be quite significant ....

https://www.axios.com/biden-trump-la...17f68055e.html

"Over 190 law enforcement officials endorse Biden"
Unless Trump can say over 1,000 ...
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Old Sep 6th 2020, 12:39 am
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post
Not sure what you mean about “supporting Ireland.” Most people in the UK support Ireland, and certainly the British and Irish governments “support” each other. UK & Ireland are two countries with a very close relationship, intertwined economies, very large numbers of British people live in Ireland, and vice versa. So why on earth would anyone think it a problem that the US supports Ireland?
Mad Eric the ironworker said "I am from the capital of Ireland, Liverpool!"
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