jackson3557

Hi,

I've been dating a Thai girl for a while now and we're now coming to the stage where we are looking at marriage.

She has informed me of the custom of Sin Sot and that her parents will expect an amount to be agreed. I am aware of the custom and to be honest don't take an real issue with it as long as it remains reasonable.

We are both the same age (25), I live and work in the UK but visit Thailand regularly to see her. She generally works 6 months of the year in Europe as a Childcarer, which is where we met. She is university educated but didn't complete her degree.

I earn decent money in the UK and live what I would consider an average lifestyle.

I am really confused about what is an acceptable amount to pay for Sin Sot and how I should go about discussing this with her parents. There are many confusing articles online, discussing amounts ranging from no Sin Sot to 1,000,000 baht plus. I certainly cannot afford anywhere close to the upper amounts mentioned.

I would really appreciate any insight anyone can offer.

scot47

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=si...ient=firefox-a

bakedbean

Hi Jackson and welcome to the forum. I think Nonthaburi and Wolf who are both married to Thai ladies will be able to advise, so hang on, they'll be around on here soon.

nonthaburi

First thing I'll say is that none of this is written in stone and there are many variations that may or may not apply on an individual basis .

It is supposed to be where the man shows a load of money at the wedding to show that he has the means to provide for the bride . This money should be returned to the couple . It is not a gift to the parents , although it may be given to the parents who then buy something suitable for the couple like a deposit on a house or some land etc .

However , as mentioned above there are many variations . The practice of Sin-Sot is pretty much universally hated by foreigners who feel like they are buying a bride but that would be where the money is given to the parents and not returned . However , in my experience of Thais getting married ( and they all practice Sin-Sot ) the money is not returned . In most cases it was given as a gift to the bride . Culturally I'm guessing as some sort of safety if things go wrong .

It may also be given to the bride's family to pay for the wedding . this happened when my nephew got married and then the family on our side were complaining how they did things on the cheap.

Things vary according to social class etc regarding amounts and general wedding practices too . A village wedding will probably last a couple of days and the family and friends will do all the food ect whereas in BKK a one day thing with catering provided may be more common .

In my own case my wife never asked for it and I never offered . I think she knew what my answer would have been anyway . And seeing how I was skint at the time it wouldn't have made any difference. But over the years I have done many things for the family so they have probably done okay out of me.

As to your situation I can't really say . You should try to make some sort of offering because it will look bad if you don't . The family will lose face that their daughter is marrying a 'poor' foreigner . Remember that the money should be coming back to you , it's just for show . 1-200,000 should be enough IMO , that's only 2-4K UK . To be honest , if you haven't got that maybe you should think again about getting married ! But then again I had nothing when I got married so who am I to tell you what to do .

The important thing to remember is that you both have to agree about this because otherwise it may leave a bitter taste in your mouth which isn't a good way to start a marriage.

On a side note , I love a good Thai wedding . Went to two last year and they were great . A 2 day piss-up with live music . You might need ear plugs though !!

There are probably other things to add that I can't remember just now so see what anybody else says.

wolf5370

First off I appologise for keying errors - I'm using a very old laptop with a failing keyboard right now as my PC is being rebuilt.

I agree with much of Nonthaburi's post above.

Sin Sot is not usually paid by Thais any more (which is one reason why farangs get angry about it - it is sometimes used as a means to rake people - stories of women marrying foreigners over and over again for the sin sot - foten of 000's of dollars - are abound in poor areas).

The practice mostly goes on now in Issan (NE) - one of the poorest areas of the country (and girls from these regions), but that is not exclussive. Thai Chinese still do it (although slightly differently).

The idea was that historically women could not inherit (unless there was no male sibling), so educating them (including teaching them to cook, serve, clean, etc) was seen as an expense to families as the girls invariably got wed (often at 12) and then went to live on their husband's farm - thereby taking all the benefit of their upbringing. In effect it was to compensate the families for looking after a daughter which was not a direct investment like a son, which would inherit the farm (or part thereof) and work it their lifetime.
It was a social inhibitor that it saved baby daughters from being dumped to die in the forest.

In this day and age - both boys and girls go to school and get jobs. They also get married much later, after earning family income. Therefore, it is really only a ceremonial thing. Money is displayed at the wedding to give both families face (show off to neighbours). It should be returned to the couple at the end of the wedding. It is NOT a dowry! It was also only paid once - not to divorcees/widows or those with children (as it was desirable to get them rewed instead).

Most happily, unscammed, people I know, in mixed marriages here, did not talk about or pay any sin sot. I, like many displayed money on a table (I put 100k baht on the table and took it back at the end - I used it to buy gifts, like new fridge, etc for the family, but that was my choice and not asked for). My wife is Thai-Chinese (1/4 Chinese), so things were slightly different in that money is always displayed(and returned to the couple) during the wedding ceremony. My father in law was a naval officer and her mother owned a business, so money was not their aim.

I don't want to be an alarmist, but I would be careful if sin sot has been raised, to me that would trigger alarm bells. You are a big boy, so I'll not lecture you, but you might like to test the waters by simply saying it is against your culture as it would be an insult to make such a gesture, so you will not be paying sin sot, but will pay for the wedding and wedding party and buy mum/dad a new TV (or whatever) as a gift of affection after the wedding. That should give you the answers you need. It is NOT her culture (not for a century or so), but is yours, so she should respect yours as you will respect hers.

Good luck.

wwinit

Sin Sot is a sum of money, valuable things or properties that a bridegroom needs to offer the bride's parents. It is a kind of culture and belief that her mum and dad have spent lots of time and money looking after her. When somebody wants to take their daughter away, it is his responsibility to pay back. The amount of Sin Sot vary from 1 baht to 100 millions and depends on her family. In practice, most parents will return the money back to the couplet to start a new family life, but few use some money to cover the arranged ceremony. Please be aware of that the money is not literally for buying her from the family and you can do anything to her as you wish.

From your thread, it seems to me your pocket is very small, e.g. £5K-10K. So just go to have a word with her parents in Thailand. For foreigners, I think nowadays Sin Sot (money, gold necklaces, etc.) should not be less than £2K or (or 100,000 baht), as it means the 'face' (หน้าตา) of her family. As you know of in Thailand and Asian countries, to make somebody lose 'face' is quite serious and should be avoided. Anyway, if you really love her and her parents are not too fussy, they might request less than that. Good luck with your endeavour!

wwinit

To correct Wolf5370's message, offering Sin Sot is still practised everywhere in Thailand, to some extent. Please have a positive attitude toward Sin Sot, since it is still a symbol of respect your lady's family that all Thais and farangs need to follow. Try to explain your situation to her parents and hopefully they would understand that. In case things do not go smoothly, just wait until the age of 30 or when you can save up the money as requested. In Thailand, how could you stay with a would-be wife without permission from her family with Sin Sot? Exceptional might be a temporary paygirl, prostitute or ladyboy. Anyway, I wish you luck.

nonthaburi

agree with wwinit about Sin Sot still being practised everywhere . All the Thais I know do it , although they do live in Isaan . Doesn't have to be poor people either . When my niece got married the Sin Sot was 200,000 , 10 baht of gold and about 20 Rai of land . A not inconsiderable amount when you add it all up. Just because people look poor doesn't mean they are is something I have often found .
I think it is done all over Thailand not just Isaan and not just poor people . When I think of the guys I used to work with who married women from all over they all did it . I have also known it to be paid on 2nd and 3rd marriages between Thais too . like I said in my 1st post there are a lot of variables and nothing is written in stone .

wolf5370

Don't want to argue about it - but all the Thais I know (baring in mind I live here and have done so for quite a few years now - and had ties with Thais and Thailand since childhood), that are of middle classes or above (with the exception of the outwardly projecting Sino-Thais - Chinese Thais) all say that Sin Sot is no longer practiced, and that it is for display purposes only these days (if at all). Only weddings I've been to here with Sin Sot displayed were Chinese and farang.

Indeed, many smirk behind their hands that farang fall for it and even pay for women that have been married before, live away from home or work in the sex industry (this is not my smirking - just passing it along) - which would never have attracted Sin Sot anyway.

Many weddings will display money like a Sin Sot, but this is not Sin Sot - it is a cultural tradition like cutting the cake or stamping on a glass in some western traditions. Sin Sot was a bargained agreement before a couple became engaged (arranged by families rather than the couple themselves) and paid on the wedding day before the ceremony - it was not returned by tradition (although what an individual does with it is their concern). Although it is not a dowry pe say, it is as defunct as dowries are in our tradition.

I would still be suspicious of a woman asking about Sin Sot during a relationship - but maybe that's just my nature (or the mass of stories about guys losing their shirts) - [Getting married for sex is like buying a 747 for the free peanuts. - Jeff Foxworthy].

Sin Sot is very emotive amongst farang/Thai couples I've noted. I have been asked about it before, only to have the guy (not the Thai girl!) fly off the handle because of the suggestion that prostitutes do not attract Sin Sot (not that I suggested his lady was such) - like I was making a judgement - it's not, it was never done (unless said female was from a powerful family and it was a face making gesture - which would be extremely rare I would suggest) - and that it should be based against the value of the parent's investment, not her worth to the groom (which would be insulting, no?) - i.e. poor families would have invested less money than wealthy families - university educated girls would have been a greater investment than a free temple school until twelve, etc. Also taking into account her loss to the family (impact wise) - if she was the main bread winner/helped on the farm/cooked and cleaned for the family - then that loss needs to be covered (this of course is in the opposite poor/wealth direction). It should also not be a financial burden on the new couple in anyway (it was supposed to be parents to parents agreement, not a groom buying bedding rights for the bride!) - this can be difficult with farangs whose family is far away or are too old to have living parents (of any means) - rich old men are not a family "turn off" as it is expected that the bride will eventually inherrit.

nonthaburi

We obviously move in different circles then . But if we go along with your argument that middle class and above people don't do it then that still leaves an awful lot of Thai people , the majority in fact . I'm fairly sure that an awful lot of them do do it due to my own experiences , and not just in " poor " Isaan either .
Also you say that middle class people and above don't do it but if this is the case why then do you read of so called hi-so types getting married with a sin-sot of millions of baht . It is still practiced through all levels of society as a whole . It's just that the amounts and the way it is done differ .
If just for display purposes that is still sin-sot because it does demonstrate that the groom has the means to take care of the bride in her new life etc . This is fairly normal for all Thais .




A traditional, formal presentation of the bride price at a Thai engagement ceremony.
In Thailand, bride price (Thai: สินสอด, pronounced [sĭn sòt] and often erroneously referred to by the English term "dowry") is common in both Thai-Thai and Thai-foreign marriages. The bride price may range from nothing, if the woman is divorced, has a child fathered by another man, or is widely known to have had premarital relations with men; upwards to tens of millions of Thai baht (US$300,000) for a woman of high social standing, a beauty queen, or a highly educated woman. The bride price in Thailand is paid at the engagement ceremony, and consists of three elements: cash, Thai (96.5% pure) gold, and the more recent Western tradition of a diamond ring. The most commonly stated rationale for the bride price in Thailand is that it allows the groom to demonstrate that he has enough financial resources to support the bride (and possibly her family) after the wedding. In many cases, especially when the amount is large, the parents of a Thai bride will return all or part of the bride price to the couple in the form of a wedding gift following the engagement ceremony.

Out of interest but what would you call a middle class Thai ?

bakedbean

Could it be down to area differences? i.e. Chiang Mai and Isaan quite a way away from each other and maybe different Thai cultures?

wwinit

Wow. I can't believe sin sot could be an interesting issues with some arguments. Nonthaburi - You are really knowledgeable. Even though you are now a Maths teacher in Riyadh, you can explain things clearly. Just want to emphasise sin sot, or fully called 'sin sot thong man' (สินสอดทองหมั้น), has gradually changed its form from the ancient definition in the agricultural period as Wolf put it above to a symbol of respect for the bride's parents and groom's financial status in this high-tech era. Regardless of social statuses, sin sot is still practised in Thailand with various formats depending on the regions and some exceptions as Nonthaburi pointed out. You can do a bit research by asking around 20 Thai-Thai or Thai-Farang couples in different shops near your house. You bet almost 100% are aware of this, as it has existed in Thailand and Suwannapumi for nearly thousand years. But some don't have to deal with it directly, totally ignore it or remain exceptional.

Alan2005

I've only been to one Thai wedding. They were both well off middle class Thais (own house, maid etc) and they didn't bother with this sin sot thingy.

nonthaburi

I did say in my first post that there are a lot of variables and none of this is written in stone .

Perhaps there might be someone with experience from the South to share with us.

nonthaburi

Well I did spend a third of my life in Thailand , married to a Thai , got two Thai kids blah blah blah blah blah