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Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by jonboy
(Post 11298629)
So we seem to be talking about “going home to dieâ€. It is not as if the uk has any better solution to the issue than any other country may have. Death does seem to be the final taboo, the one least planned for. Has anyone been to the “Ideal Death Show†or “Our Death in the Sun†at Olympia, recently?
The problem with ill health in another country is communicating our needs and if we suffer from any memory problems, then the language that we learned after our mother tongue will be the first to desert us! Care of the dying is a controversial subject as you will see when reading about the “Liverpool Care Pathwayâ€. Quite how we care for others in their later life and how we are cared for ourselves seems to be to some extent, luck. If we make plans now then we may stand a better chance of having so called good luck. If we have not even managed to make a will up to now then we is up the swanee! I sort of like the idea of striking first and arranging an assisted death for myself but because I am curious I would probably leave it too late. Life is a series of events of loss and finally we lose our lives on this earth. Any one want to buy into a religion:huh: |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by jennieJ
(Post 11299988)
If a person has their mental faculties and want to go home (possibly to die there, in the place they have been happy with their wife) there is absolutely nothing Social Services can do to stop it.
However, if you were there and were the next of kin you should have been more assertive and spoke up for him, even with 'all their degrees' (which you clearly denigrate) and your contemptuous expression of 'an interesting social experiment' - no it's the law actually, if you genuinely think it is the wrong thing a social worker, nurse, sister etc will take on board the next of kins wishes. If you genuinely thought he needed a few more days in hospital you should have stood your ground and sorted it. My dear Dad has a tolerance level for hospital, he goes in and for the first 2 days he gets better, as he us put on a drip by day 4 he starts going down hill again. He and I have a little joke, that it's the devils own job to get in hospital, but when you are a noctaganarian it's even harder to get out again, they are frightened to discharge him incase something happens and they are to blame And just to note for those going on about how the UK family has disintegrated, Norman Tebbit blah blah blah ........, sorry but there has always been good supportive families and bad for decades, it's not new. Even those of us who have a complicated life part here part there can still manage to do what is needed, when there's a will (and love) there's a way, especially when you are any only child. Care in the UK is about £13.95 an hour via care agency's that are local authority inspected and regulated, but subsided dependant on means testing. If you are assessed as needing more than four hours a day, that's your lot and you have to go in a residential or nursing home. No assets the LA pays, assets you pay, until they are used then the LA takes over payment. You are not left to rot on the street, as some surmises, it's all laid down by regulation. To give them credit the nursing staff seemed embarrassed to be there and be part of the "rubbber stamp". That my father to the greater extent was mentally capable, from the kneck down he was a disaster. To release someone from hospital "into their own care" when they have been known to fall out of bed whilst trying to get out, couldn't get to the toilet is nonsensical. All protests by "the family" were ignored due to his statement - again to the embarrassment of the nursing staff. And as to costs, what about sending him home in an ambulance to be placed in a bed he can't get out of, to have to send for a GP who had to send for an ambulance to take him back again. All inside 24hrs. To say the GP was angry at the original discharge was an understatement and apologised to father and us. Perhaps if he had been asked to attend the clinical review meeting things would have been different. But he did try, even though he knew full well that although the mind and the spirit were strong that the body was weak. A couple of days later he was put on pain relief drugs for the cancer and didn't leave the hospital alive. And as posted earlier, he had move twice in the 20 years since we lost mother, he had no strong emotional ties to the place. ` |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by jennieJ
(Post 11300165)
There may be a degree driven culture in the NHS, but I can assure you that a lot if the real carers i.e. The care workers that go into the home for an hourly rate are 'degree free' as I have employed a few over the last decade for my (sadly) late) Mum and my dear Dad.
Regarding the family unit and it's ability and willingness to care for loved ones it's can be a complex issue. My children see what I have done for my parents however I have no expectation that they will do the same for us. The important thing is to talk about these things. My Mum looked after her Mum the three brothers did nothing. Families are complex, I have a friend who was sexually abused by her father as a child despite this she has tried to have some kind of adult relationship with him, now she's in her 50ties and he his 80ties but she will not become his carer and wipe his incontinent bottom, it is a reach too far for her. No doubt people who didn't know the background might judge. Often people only know half or a quarter of the story. People are very happy to criticise the family unit particularly those looking back at the UK from Southern Europe, but there are actually people who still look out for family and do their best. People will now have to work to 67 if they are lucky enough to have a job that long. It will be hard to be a carer on top of that at that age when your own health can be failing. How often do you hear 'I'm moving to Spain because it's so much more family orientated' ? I say to them 'so basically you want to be more family orientated by coming here but are emigrating and leaving all but your immediate family? Now there is an oxymoron if ever there was one. Most can't even see the irony at the point of departure, many come back because they miss family and close friends. As to the culture in the NHS. I've got 2 nieces, one a GP the other a Consultant. Both are married to Consultants. To be honest, they act more like greedy bankers than the caring sort - basically raking it in. Just a snapshot I know. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by lutonlad
(Post 11300501)
I agree. Members of the same family do not necessarily act the same when it comes to care. Sometimes those that do the least, shout the most.
As to the culture in the NHS. I've got 2 nieces, one a GP the other a Consultant. Both are married to Consultants. To be honest, they act more like greedy bankers than the caring sort - basically raking it in. Just a snapshot I know. mine was when my GP detected a heart murmor and referred me to a consultant at the big hospital. She told me that I would have to wait several months. When I said I had private company medical I was given a private consultation for 10 days later. In the same hospital, in the same offices, with the same consultant, the same nurse with tests using NHS equipment and electricity. When asked she did have the grace to say she had an "arrangement". Although as nearly all the lighting was off in that area I did wonder what sort of "arrangement" it was or just a "working late to catch up". :ohmy: |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Sounds dreadful Domino. If you received an official apology from the NHS hospital then it sounds like their official discharge policy was not properly followed through.
AFAIK nursing staff would have informed the duty doctor, who should have informed the consultant as your Dad was vulnerable. Your Dad would have signed a self-discharge form. Then family and services informed & you all convene, with your Dad present ,to ensure he knew the score . The GP will not have been informed until the point of actual discharge. A handover. A care plan should have been put into place via the GP surgery & social services to help you care for your Dad. With my Dad, he insisted he wished to go home. He signed the form . Then it was arranged for everyone to meet in his hospital side room (MRSA) to ensure he knew what he was doing. Once that happened, a palliative care team was put together to help me cope . Diamorphine was administered via pump in the last couple of days to ease him into death. Your Dad sounds a bit like mine. A fine indomitable spirit in the face of dreadful physical adversity. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by BEVS
(Post 11301337)
Sounds dreadful Domino. If you received an official apology from the NHS hospital then it sounds like their official discharge policy was not properly followed through.
AFAIK nursing staff would have informed the duty doctor, who should have informed the consultant as your Dad was vulnerable. Your Dad would have signed a self-discharge form. Then family and services informed & you all convene, with your Dad present ,to ensure he knew the score . The GP will not have been informed until the point of actual discharge. A handover. A care plan should have been put into place via the GP surgery & social services to help you care for your Dad. With my Dad, he insisted he wished to go home. He signed the form . Then it was arranged for everyone to meet in his hospital side room (MRSA) to ensure he knew what he was doing. Once that happened, a palliative care team was put together to help me cope . Diamorphine was administered via pump in the last couple of days to ease him into death. Your Dad sounds a bit like mine. A fine indomitable spirit in the face of dreadful physical adversity. Father could hardly hold a pen - letalone sign with it. AFAIR the "care plan" was not put into effect, a discharge in late afternoon/early evening followed by an emergency admission the following morning. I cannot understand a medical system that puts people back into the community and then tells the community. The relevant authorities need to be informed PRIOR not after. But then I have known well-known companies who employ people who arrive at work without need to know departments knowing they are coming ;) one was a sales rep who arrived by taxi expecting to drive home in a company car that hadn't been ordered. :o So to both Bevs and JennyJ - things do go wrong, people take short cuts/forget things, etc etc. Just that when it happens to you and your loved ones it makes you so angry and desperate because it is PERSONAL. And this is why I have no time for the hand wringers who come out with the same old platitudes of "a lesson has been learnt". You are supposed to have learnt before being allowed to play with people's lives. Rant over, time is a great healer just that it still leaves scars and sores. have a nice day ` |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Sounds awful Domino, I'm sure I would have felt the same, I know no system is never going to be perfect, but when it's personal to you it's very difficult if not nigh on impossible to cope with.
My Dad seems to go in about 3 times a year, the carers often call an ambulance when he gets a standard cold virus which drives me and Dad nuts. The trouble is a 92 year old bloke with a bad cold often looks like he is about to die. Also he's partially sighted and once in can't see what's going on, can't sign things like your Dad, so I have to beetle over and sort it all out. After 3 or 4 days he's sick of it in there, and I'm terrified of him getting MRSA or similar, on the back of having a simple cold virus. He doesn't drink enough either so often gets dehydrated so at least the drip helps that. Personally I think he has had enough and wants to go and visit my late Mum wherever she's hanging out. One of his favourite expressions is 'people are living too long nowadays' - makes me a bit sad. Think he wants to 'go' in the house he spent many happy years with her, rather than in hospital, and I will do my best to ensure that's what happens - hence me hoiking him out of hospital after 3 or 4 days. Bizzarly for a 92 year old disabled by blindness guy, there isn't actually much wrong with him, takes less pills than me n my hubbie ! |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by lutonlad
(Post 11297585)
I could be wrong but I think things have changed in a relatively short time.
Some 25 years ago, both of my parents started a downward spiral of serious health problems. During this time it had a significant effect on our life - career, family etc. Indirectly, my career probably never fully recovered. However, at the time, we didn't give any of it a second thought - it just seemed right. Now, our children are approaching the age when it all started for us. Sadly, I'm not confident that we would receive the same level of support. A difficult subject to talk about, but I wonder what others think ciao for now, 'o nonno |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by jennieJ
(Post 11301745)
Sounds awful Domino,
so far as I am concerned it is difficult, you either concentrate on the grieving, the funeral arrangements etc or you start dissecting the NHS and SS. The last option is the most time consuming and self destroying. A bonus. We contacted the undertakers who had handled mother's passing 20 years before to head up fathers funeral/cremation. We had no idea what had happened to mother's ashes after her cremation but were sure that father had them. They said that father had originally had them in an urn but had returned it to them for safe keeping as he couldn't get up every morning and spend his day looking at it. Considering the length of time they would have to look at their records and come back to us. The undertakers called us back a few days later to say that they had mothers ashes and had also been able to find an unused identical urn. After the cremation we were able to carry out an interment of both urns in a single plot. This was in the cemetery, only a few yards away from where mother's parents were buried, associated with the church where they were married back in the mid-1930's. Both my sister and I had made our own lives many years ago but were more than happy to bring this full circle for our parents. For both of them the passing from one state to another was not pleasant and involved lots of distress and upset. But they are together now, they are identified as having lived and died and their grandchildren are keeping a special watch on their last resting place. What more can one ask. ` |
Re: When it's time to go home.
I'm glad that by concentrating on the grieving and funeral it stopped you concentrating on the other negative aspects and that they have ended up together due to your efforts.
We had something similar with the NHS and my late mother in law (it related to a GP rather than a hospital but I won't bore you with the detail ). I was really upset but my DH just let it go and concentrated on the funeral etc like you did which was probably the most sensible thing to do in his case. It was 20 years ago and I was a lot younger and hot headed and felt if it had been my parent I would have wanted to take it further, but I had to bite my tongue and support him as best he needed. It wasn't my parent and he had to deal with it in the best way for him, his Dad deserted them when he was tiny so she was his sole relative. So I can understand where you are coming from. All this us very difficult, more so if you pass outside your country of birth. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Apologies no idea why things are posting twice. Happy for mods to delete one copy and this post.
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Re: When it's time to go home.
Yup ! Time is a healer but some experiences never truly leave us do they. I could curl your toes with the details of how my Mum died after being mis-diagnosed. How frantic we were to not be properly heard. She had a brain tumour . She was only 64. That was 18 yrs ago. We could have taken the NHS to the cleaners but we didn't. As you quite rightly say, we focused on laying her to rest and to find a way to healthily grieve.
Returning to the actual topic. For my parents this all took place in the UK where both sides completely understood the language spoken. What care could/should be given. For New Zealand it works the same really. I know, I've been that medical emergency. How must it be if you are in a country where English is not a main language . Where the person may not have become fluent. Where the care services may work differently . Should the expat think to 'go home' then or does a country like Spain provide for the elderly and infirmed. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Spanish people are family friendly, reputedly more so than their northern European neighbours, although it's not something I've been convinced about over the years.
My wife, who was a medical interpreter, is frequently asked by non-Spanish speaking expats to enquire what has happened after a close relative has been admitted to Urgencias the night before. They've already had a call from an official at the hospital that morning but couldn't understand what was being said to them. I dread those calls and she will hand me the telephone if it's someone we know well. A morose topic but fallecido(a) or muerto(a) is not what you want to hear. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by HBG
(Post 11303377)
Spanish people are family friendly, reputedly more so than their northern European neighbours, although it's not something I've been convinced about over the years.
My wife, who was a medical interpreter, is frequently asked by non-Spanish speaking expats to enquire what has happened after a close relative has been admitted to Urgencias the night before. They've already had a call from an official at the hospital that morning but couldn't understand what was being said to them. I dread those calls and she will hand me the telephone if it's someone we know well. A morose topic but fallecido(a) or muerto(a) is not what you want to hear. my BH has had hospital appointments arranged by them phoning us and she always passes her mobile to me. She says I have more patience with them. There are far less problems on a 1:1 basis. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
In 2012 my mum (95) had a series of TIAs (little strokes I think) and when she had recovered enough to warrant release from hospital they asked me where she lived which was a modern, purpose built retired people's complex, their own flat, alarms on every wall and 24 hour on-site carers.
The hospital said it wasn't good enough, the company providing the carers weren't up to standard. They kept her in hospital until new arrangements could be made which they were happy with. I suspect that the situation wouldn't have worked that way in Spain. |
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