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When it's time to go home.
I've come across yet another example of expats leaving the time of leaving to go home until it's too late. The great majority of us eventually do return home even after many years of living in a foreign country.
That's what happened to this gentleman after many years in Spain. He's a widower and was healthy and fit until a fall late last year. He has just been recently released from a Spanish hospital after a hip and knee replacement. His married daughter in England couldn't come over to help because of her own family problems. The expat had been lifted out of his bed and placed on a chair when a doctor told him his treatment was over and he had to go home. The patient doesn't speak Spanish and didn't know what was happening to him. He was wheeled into the corridor where a kindly nurse called the local expat HELP organisation who sent someone to take him home. He was taken to his first floor apartment but needed to be carried up the steps to it. The expat couldn't do anything for himself, not even visit the toilet. The volunteers knew that the Spanish social system couldn't help, they are not just geared up for it and the helper coming to wipe a patient's bum will only speak Spanish. The point of this post is: do not leave it too late before making yourself as safe as possible when living in a foreign country, and learn the language as best you can. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
A very sad story. One can only imagine his loneliness and frustration.
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Re: When it's time to go home.
Hola
The British Consulate may be able to help repatriate in cases such as these Davexf |
Re: When it's time to go home.
I think there are many stories like this that we don't hear about. It's a lesson in thinking ahead and doing something before we are too frail to pack up and deal with the stressful business of selling up and moving.
If a partner has a stroke, accident, dementia or any other serious condition, it completely alters their life in Spain. Relatives cannot drop everything and fly over to spend what may be many months in caring and sorting problems. Paying for daily or 24 hr care is very expensive. Many can no longer cope with maintaining a property, garden and pool, and it can cost a lot for paid help. Just everyday dealing with matters that may not be straightforward, is stressful, and after years in Spain some have had enough. The problem for many is selling the property, understandably not wanting to let it go for a pittance, and hoping to have enough to buy something decent in UK. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
I assume care is cheaper here than in the UK, its 7€ a hour in day and 9€ at night.
Id rather die here than have to go back to the UK ill |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by HBG
(Post 11295915)
I've come across yet another example of expats leaving the time of leaving to go home until it's too late. The great majority of us eventually do return home even after many years of living in a foreign country.
That's what happened to this gentleman after many years in Spain. He's a widower and was healthy and fit until a fall late last year. He has just been recently released from a Spanish hospital after a hip and knee replacement. His married daughter in England couldn't come over to help because of her own family problems. The expat had been lifted out of his bed and placed on a chair when a doctor told him his treatment was over and he had to go home. The patient doesn't speak Spanish and didn't know what was happening to him. He was wheeled into the corridor where a kindly nurse called the local expat HELP organisation who sent someone to take him home. He was taken to his first floor apartment but needed to be carried up the steps to it. The expat couldn't do anything for himself, not even visit the toilet. The volunteers knew that the Spanish social system couldn't help, they are not just geared up for it and the helper coming to wipe a patient's bum will only speak Spanish. The point of this post is: do not leave it too late before making yourself as safe as possible when living in a foreign country, and learn the language as best you can. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by andyrich666
(Post 11296101)
I assume care is cheaper here than in the UK, its 7€ a hour in day and 9€ at night.
Id rather die here than have to go back to the UK ill There are adverts in shop windows for helping in the house, but it's essential to get someone trustworthy. If you have a serious or long term condition or disability, unless you are very wealthy, and can go to a residential complex, where every need is attended to, you would be far better off in the UK, where benefits and different care options would be accessible to you. Another point, not enough thought is given to relatives who are going to have to sort your care, finances, property etc out here if you can't. It must be a nightmare for those who have left it too late! |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by HBG
(Post 11295915)
after many years in Spain....
The patient doesn't speak Spanish. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by Neptuno
(Post 11296117)
Where did you get those figures from. A nursing agency here charges 20 euros an hour, even at your figures 24 hour care would be prohibitive. Anyone working in someone's home would also have to be vetted.
There are adverts in shop windows for helping in the house, but it's essential to get someone trustworthy. If you have a serious or long term condition or disability, unless you are very wealthy, and can go to a residential complex, where every need is attended to, you would be far better off in the UK, where benefits and different care options would be accessible to you. Another point, not enough thought is given to relatives who are going to have to sort your care, finances, property etc out here if you can't. It must be a nightmare for those who have left it too late! |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by ann m
(Post 11296121)
How does this happen? Not being rude or flippant....genuinely interested.
Even if they are fluent, it won't help much if the resources are not available to help with their decreasing mobility or degenerative illness. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Hola
Many pensioners "get by" without being able to speak Spanish; no need in supermarkets and English is the official second language of Europe so many Spanish can speak English. You only need a couple of hundred words (nouns) to make yourself understood - understanding what people say to you is an entirely different thing; the accents can be atrocious - real local dialect unintelligible to those who speak the Kings Spanish !!! Davexf |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by Moses2013
(Post 11296123)
Even in the UK they can take everything from you. You pay into the system for years and then they take your home, so no different.
The UK is far better in this situation, warts and all! |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by Neptuno
(Post 11296130)
But it's better than being somewhere where you don't understand the lingo, haven't any money to pay for personal or domestic care, or feed yourself properly.
The UK is far better in this situation, warts and all! |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by Moses2013
(Post 11296135)
But it was his choice to live there and if it made him happy. The day it happens in the UK he'd be just as miserable. You could also be living in the UK and might find some people with the same level of English, as a Spanish person in Spain.
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Re: When it's time to go home.
Some people have been found in a dire situation out here. ill, doubly incontinent,immobile with perhaps an equally frail spouse. They may not have anyone in UK and even if they did they cannot give up their jobs to care for them;Will the Spanish health authority take them under their wing? Social care is available, but first someone must know how to access it, and of course speak Spanish. It's more likely they will be left, possibly in Squalor, until a charity hears about them. These charities do marvellous work, but cannot be expected to take on long term care, especially if there are no funds. Will they then be put in a Spanish residential home filled with residents and carers who they don't understand, and who don't understand them?
The alternative, in UK may not be ideal but it's a damn sight better than what they would face here! Search "Georgia's story" on Murcia Today for a salutary lesson on what may go wrong if you leave it too long! TOO many people think it can't happen to them. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by Dxf
(Post 11296128)
Hola
English is the official second language of Europe so many Spanish can speak English. It may be an official language in Brussels at the European parliament, but not in Spain |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by Neptuno
(Post 11296213)
Some people have been found in a dire situation out here. ill, doubly incontinent,immobile with perhaps an equally frail spouse. They may not have anyone in UK and even if they did they cannot give up their jobs to care for them;Will the Spanish health authority take them under their wing? Social care is available, but first someone must know how to access it, and of course speak Spanish. It's more likely they will be left, possibly in Squalor, until a charity hears about them. These charities do marvellous work, but cannot be expected to take on long term care, especially if there are no funds. Will they then be put in a Spanish residential home filled with residents and carers who they don't understand, and who don't understand them?
The alternative, in UK may not be ideal but it's a damn sight better than what they would face here! Search "Georgia's story" on Murcia Today for a salutary lesson on what may go wrong if you leave it too long! TOO many people think it can't happen to them. Good post, good advice. I have been here long enough to have known quite well many who realized when it was the best thing to do, having previously enjoyed long contented periods in Spain, .... though I also knew one or two unfortunate ones who didn't make the right decision in time and they and their families suffered the consequences. It may be true that facilities are getting stretched in the UK, but just lately down here some are deteriorating at an alarming rate, mainly due to the seriousness of the crisis. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by Neptuno
(Post 11296213)
Some people have been found in a dire situation out here. ill, doubly incontinent,immobile with perhaps an equally frail spouse. They may not have anyone in UK and even if they did they cannot give up their jobs to care for them;Will the Spanish health authority take them under their wing? Social care is available, but first someone must know how to access it, and of course speak Spanish. It's more likely they will be left, possibly in Squalor, until a charity hears about them. These charities do marvellous work, but cannot be expected to take on long term care, especially if there are no funds. Will they then be put in a Spanish residential home filled with residents and carers who they don't understand, and who don't understand them?
The alternative, in UK may not be ideal but it's a damn sight better than what they would face here! Search "Georgia's story" on Murcia Today for a salutary lesson on what may go wrong if you leave it too long! TOO many people think it can't happen to them. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by Moses2013
(Post 11296244)
If there is no care for him in Spain, they'll just send him to the UK, so he's in the exact same position.
He will rot alone in his home unless he gets help from volunteers His daughter should be ashamed. She is complicit in the maltreatment and possible death of her own father |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 11296347)
Who will send him to the UK? The Spanish government won't
He will rot alone in his home unless he gets help from volunteers His daughter should be ashamed. She is complicit in the maltreatment and possible death of her own father |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by Moses2013
(Post 11296366)
All that was said is that the daughter didn't come over at the time it happened. The Spanish government will also send someone to his home and he'll have to pay for care from his savings. When the savings are gone, the daughter will have to pay and if she can't, they'll take his apartment.
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Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by lynnxa
(Post 11296402)
just like the UK then
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Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by Moses2013
(Post 11296366)
All that was said is that the daughter didn't come over at the time it happened. The Spanish government will also send someone to his home and he'll have to pay for care from his savings. When the savings are gone, the daughter will have to pay and if she can't, they'll take his apartment.
The Spanish system is very different, nobody from the government agencies will visit the sick expat and as Cricketman said, 'he will be left to rot . . .' |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Moses 2013 I'm afraid that you haven't got this right at all. The help available in Spain is minimal - not like the UK at all - I know this for a fact.
I know people in the situation that they have become ill, been 'fixed up' in hospital and sent home completely unable to fend for themselves. If it wasn't for the help of acquaintances raising money for their care and indeed providing care themselves they would likely starve and die in squalor. It's not 'the same back home'. Nothing like it. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by jimenato
(Post 11296551)
Moses 2013 I'm afraid that you haven't got this right at all. The help available in Spain is minimal - not like the UK at all - I know this for a fact.
I know people in the situation that they have become ill, been 'fixed up' in hospital and sent home completely unable to fend for themselves. If it wasn't for the help of acquaintances raising money for their care and indeed providing care themselves they would likely starve and die in squalor. It's not 'the same back home'. Nothing like it. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by mfh
(Post 11296595)
I think here in Madrid there is some sort of help given to old people I see a lot of very old people being helped by south americans mainly and the people they are helping certainly don't look rich to hire them but... I'm not sure cos its just based on observation I'll ask at the town hall the next time I have to prove I'm alive :-)
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Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by HBG
(Post 11295915)
I've come across yet another example of expats leaving the time of leaving to go home until it's too late. The great majority of us eventually do return home even after many years of living in a foreign country.
That's what happened to this gentleman after many years in Spain. He's a widower and was healthy and fit until a fall late last year. He has just been recently released from a Spanish hospital after a hip and knee replacement. His married daughter in England couldn't come over to help because of her own family problems. The expat had been lifted out of his bed and placed on a chair when a doctor told him his treatment was over and he had to go home. The patient doesn't speak Spanish and didn't know what was happening to him. He was wheeled into the corridor where a kindly nurse called the local expat HELP organisation who sent someone to take him home. He was taken to his first floor apartment but needed to be carried up the steps to it. The expat couldn't do anything for himself, not even visit the toilet. The volunteers knew that the Spanish social system couldn't help, they are not just geared up for it and the helper coming to wipe a patient's bum will only speak Spanish. The point of this post is: do not leave it too late before making yourself as safe as possible when living in a foreign country, and learn the language as best you can. This situation happened to my father a few years ago. Although he had a ground floor elderly/disabled place to go back to, he had been admitted to local hospital because he couldn't do things for himself and had 2 falls inside 24hrs and was admitted for observation. The very kind Social Services lady said that he should be released to his own home as that was his wish. My sister and I pleaded that he was on his own, he had fallen again in hospital trying to get to the toilet, and he didn't have the strength in arms or legs to get himself out of bed. But she is part of the SS and knew better than us - insisting it was his wish that HAD to be obeyed. So he was sent home and during the night fell trying to get out of bed, couldn't reach an emergency pull so lay there until my sister phoned him the following morning to see if he was alright. Her calls got me there just after his GP who called an ambulance for immediate hospitalisation. When he arrived the lovely lady from the SS was not in the building and we never did manage to find her. Father died of multiple organ failure from Cancer a couple of weeks later. And that was in Hertfordshire, only 20 miles outside London. So Spain is not the only place where these things happen. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by Domino
(Post 11296815)
Very sad tale, this is one of the reasons why the BH and I gave up on "the dream" of our own place away from it all, with a bit of self sufficiency thrown in.
This situation happened to my father a few years ago. Although he had a ground floor elderly/disabled place to go back to, he had been admitted to local hospital because he couldn't do things for himself and had 2 falls inside 24hrs and was admitted for observation. The very kind Social Services lady said that he should be released to his own home as that was his wish. My sister and I pleaded that he was on his own, he had fallen again in hospital trying to get to the toilet, and he didn't have the strength in arms or legs to get himself out of bed. But she is part of the SS and knew better than us - insisting it was his wish that HAD to be obeyed. So he was sent home and during the night fell trying to get out of bed, couldn't reach an emergency pull so lay there until my sister phoned him the following morning to see if he was alright. Her calls got me there just after his GP who called an ambulance for immediate hospitalisation. When he arrived the lovely lady from the SS was not in the building and we never did manage to find her. Father died of multiple organ failure from Cancer a couple of weeks later. And that was in Hertfordshire, only 20 miles outside London. So Spain is not the only place where these things happen. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by jonboy
(Post 11296961)
I wonder what the alternative would have been, to deny your father his wish to return home and keep him in hospital and have him die in a strange environment among people he had no connection with or to take the risk that he may fall again and accept his wishes and return him to his home as asked? Whichever course was decided upon I guess it would have been controversial in retrospect. The least we can do is to respect the individuals wish.
:( Yes, he would have preferred to have died at home, but his family weren't prepared to have him suffer and the medical people felt the same way. Where he died wasn't where he wanted, but then as mother had died at home 20 years before that place wasn't available to him as he had moved twice since then. This is something that everyone should face as they get to retirement age. As the sun comes up in the morning and sets at night - it will happen to you. And you may have to make an emergency compromise as to time and place. Just be grateful that it wasn't earlier - when our mother died of cancer it was having at least seen and held her first grandchild, but she never got a chance to know her nor to even meet the 3 that came later. Make the most of it while you can. :fingerscrossed: |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by Domino
(Post 11296815)
The very kind Social Services lady said that he should be released to his own home as that was his wish. If they are of their own mind then their wishes cannot be over-ridden and ignored, no matter what. The person cannot be compelled. It is the same vice versa of course. If the person really , desperately needs hospital attention and even if an ambulance is called or a doctor makes those calls , if the person states they will not go, then they do not go. One small interesting thing from my own experience. If the person require a saline drip just to help ease some difficulties , then that can only be done in hospital. No go to hospital, then continue to suffer. Having written that, at the final time, all the services did the best they as my Dad slowly died in his own home. I was given good support and so was he. Without them it would have been a far worse hell than it was |
Re: When it's time to go home.
There is some help in Spain..
Age Concern España | Promoting the well-being of older ... acespana.org/ Age Concern España, a fully registered not for profit Spanish organisation, has been providing support and promoting the well being of the over 50s in Spain ... Google+ page · Be the first to review Passatge Santa Catalina de Sena, 4, 07002 Palma de Mallorca, ISLAS BALEARES, Spain +34 678 35 20 40 ‎Contact us - ‎AC Estepona y Manilva Contact us | Age Concern España acespana.org/contact-us/ Please click on the links below to see the relevant contact details. Local Organisations | Age Concern España acespana.org/acos/ The Age Concern Organisations (ACOs) provide services to those who are ... Age Concern (Spain) information - HousingCare.org Care homes, retirement property and elderly home care - UK › Read about › Library › Browse by publisher Information for older people provided by Age Concern (Spain). Includes factsheets, books, articles, audio tapes, videos, websites. Either download online below, ... [PDF] Retiring abroad - Age UK http://britishexpats.com/forum/spain...d_inf.pdf.pdf?... This information guide has been prepared by Age UK and contains general advice only ..... offices in Spain and can also put you in touch with other solicitors ... |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Age Concern España | Promoting the well-being of older ...
acespana.org/ Through our volunteers we provide a range of services to help with integration into Spanish life and to provide information, advice and support for common ... ‎Contact us - ‎AC Estepona y Manilva - ‎Local Organisations - ‎Returning to the UK Growing old gracefully < Getting Started | Expatica Spain Expatica – news and information for the international community. › Home › Moving to › Getting Started 10 Jan 2005 - Age Concern Costa Blanca Sur is probably the largest UK-style charity to help the aged on the Costa Blanca, in south-eastern Spain. Help for aged parents : British Expat Discussion Forum britishexpats.com › Forum › Living & Moving Abroad › Europe › Spain 26 Jun 2012 - 4 posts - ‎4 authors Hi, Does anyone know if it is possible to get any help from Social services in Spain, in particular, help with an Alcoholic parent that is now... How can I help my aged parents in Spain? 15 posts 20 Jun 2012 Help for elderly expats 15 posts 6 Aug 2010 More results from britishexpats.com |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by jimenato
(Post 11296551)
Moses 2013 I'm afraid that you haven't got this right at all. The help available in Spain is minimal - not like the UK at all - I know this for a fact.
I know people in the situation that they have become ill, been 'fixed up' in hospital and sent home completely unable to fend for themselves. If it wasn't for the help of acquaintances raising money for their care and indeed providing care themselves they would likely starve and die in squalor. It's not 'the same back home'. Nothing like it. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
None of us thought much about returning home when we first arrived at our expat destination all that time ago. I'm sure funeral insurance was way down the list of our things to do and none of us planned on getting so ill that someone would have to come and wipe our arse for us.
We were full of optimism, full of plans for a life in the sun - we opened bars, became qualified builders overnight, and generally re-invented ourselves. It was a time of adventure and fun; selling our semi in Hornchurch allowed us to buy a villa with a swimming pool and a Mercedes to impress our neighbours. But, a few years on, the bones start to creak and funny lumps appear where they shouldn't. Like many others, I will probably leave it too late to return. I don't even like to think about it. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by Moses2013
(Post 11297517)
The same can happen in the UK and plenty of people (even in the UK) don't get the care they deserve and paid for. Fact is that old people retire to Spain for a reason and nobody can tell them when it's time to go home. Spain is still well ahead when it comes to healthcare and it's not a third world country. The only advice you can give to the elderly is to maybe get insurance and check what options are availbale in advance.
But care in the home is the responsibility of the extended family. If you are not bringing family to Spain or your extended family will not fly out to care for you if you get in trouble, then you are in a very vulnerable position As for the "Latin American carers" in Madrid. These are paid for by family members and are on minimum wage, the state does not supply them. There are 10,000s of such carers across Spain |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by HBG
(Post 11297541)
None of us thought much about returning home when we first arrived at our expat destination all that time ago. I'm sure funeral insurance was way down the list of our things to do and none of us planned on getting so ill that someone would have to come and wipe our arse for us.
We were full of optimism, full of plans for a life in the sun - we opened bars, became qualified builders overnight, and generally re-invented ourselves. It was a time of adventure and fun; selling our semi in Hornchurch allowed us to buy a villa with a swimming pool and a Mercedes to impress our neighbours. But, a few years on, the bones start to creak and funny lumps appear where they shouldn't. Like many others, I will probably leave it too late to return. I don't even like to think about it. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by BEVS
(Post 11297164)
I had the same with my Dad. That period as he was dying was hell.
If they are of their own mind then their wishes cannot be over-ridden and ignored, no matter what. The person cannot be compelled. It is the same vice versa of course. If the person really , desperately needs hospital attention and even if an ambulance is called or a doctor makes those calls , if the person states they will not go, then they do not go. One small interesting thing from my own experience. If the person require a saline drip just to help ease some difficulties , then that can only be done in hospital. No go to hospital, then continue to suffer. Having written that, at the final time, all the services did the best they as my Dad slowly died in his own home. I was given good support and so was he. Without them it would have been a far worse hell than it was Dad outlasted just about all his contemporaries and used to hit little bits of depression and circumspection when he heard of those younger than him who had died. It is something that we all have to "look forward to". Whilst sister and I were about 70 miles away from dad, I and BH will now be 1500 miles away. As I said earlier, this is why we took a really serious look at our house hunting specification (and probably upset a couple of estate agents along the way :thumbup:). Being dragged to see houses halfway up a hill (gorgeous view if no cloud) with a dirt track shared with 3 others that becomes a river in the rainy season. Being dragged round houses that are made up of 3 or 4 cottages with the door sills still in place - one was just like being back on a warship with metal watertight doors. Where we are now isn't ideal, isn't next door to the hospital - which might have helped last year - but it is the best we can find. At this stage there is no going home, we are happy here, we have our own plot. The UK has grown away from the "living in everyone's pockets" with all the family within a couple of houses or at worst case streets. The care in the family isn't there because the family isn't there. Blame Tebbitt for telling us to get on our bikes and look for work. Which we have now done in finding our retirement place. Conversely the Spanish who left Spain to work are returning for their retirement and are also finding problems in getting medical and financial payments. :( |
Re: When it's time to go home.
Originally Posted by Moses2013
(Post 11297517)
The same can happen in the UK and plenty of people (even in the UK) don't get the care they deserve and paid for. Fact is that old people retire to Spain for a reason and nobody can tell them when it's time to go home. Spain is still well ahead when it comes to healthcare and it's not a third world country. The only advice you can give to the elderly is to maybe get insurance and check what options are availbale in advance.
My wife and I have no children to wipe our bums and if we did I wouldn't want them to do it. At some point we will have to take a close look at what we are doing and make some difficult choices. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
I've had a quick read back through this thread and I have to say that those who 'leave it too late' are being either irresponsible or selfish or possibly ignorant.
If they are ignorant they might believe they will get cared for like they would be in the UK - they will not. If they just assume that family or some nice people will put themselves out and disrupt their own lives to help them they are selfish. If they just don't care or haven't thought about it at all they are irresponsible. To be fair there is a fourth type - those who know they should change their circumstances, are possibly worried sick about it but just can't because they are stuck with a worthless house and not enough income to do what they know they should. I know several of these. |
Re: When it's time to go home.
I could be wrong but I think things have changed in a relatively short time.
Some 25 years ago, both of my parents started a downward spiral of serious health problems. During this time it had a significant effect on our life - career, family etc. Indirectly, my career probably never fully recovered. However, at the time, we didn't give any of it a second thought - it just seemed right. Now, our children are approaching the age when it all started for us. Sadly, I'm not confident that we would receive the same level of support. A difficult subject to talk about, but I wonder what others think |
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