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British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
-   Spain (https://britishexpats.com/forum/spain-75/)
-   -   Train development news (https://britishexpats.com/forum/spain-75/train-development-news-733546/)

steviedeluxe Jul 5th 2013 7:46 am
Re: Train development news
 
Originally Posted by johnnyone (Post 10786320)
You do not appear to have answered my question. What is the cost of the AVE and what is the return? Or to put it another way, how much does it lose per passenger mile.
You asked the question " Why bring in UK rail costs?"

I believe I answered it.

I understand that the AVE network actually comes close to running an operating profit - but that obviously does not repay the investment costs. But there again the extra benefit to local busineses is not part of the revenue. Plus, as passenger numbers build up (an extra 1.7 million expected this year as a result of the new fares) then the figures will change.

steviedeluxe Jul 5th 2013 7:50 am
Re: Train development news
 
Originally Posted by EsuriJohn (Post 10786317)
Just out of interest Steve did Spain have a Standard gauge like UK or were there various standards. If they did have a standard how does that compare to the gauge for HST in the rest of Europe and why does AVE need to change gauge at Barcelona for trains to France?
I understand that the Iberian gauge was different to the rest of Europe for security reasons - but there may be a different reason for this.
I'm not aware that the AVE needs to change gauge at Barcelona, although it may needed to do so prior to the new Girona link being put in. Others may know more on this.

Dick Dasterdly Jul 5th 2013 7:54 am
Re: Train development news
 
Originally Posted by steviedeluxe (Post 10786301)
You mean investing in old technology that doesn't gain export contracts like Saudi/Turkey/Kazahkstan/Russia?

And btw, the cost of the new Alicante AVE link (given the Valencia to Madrid link via Albacete was already in place) was in the region of 1.9 billion.
The upgrade of the convential west coast line in the UK was in the region of £9 billion - and that was several years ago!
AVE is already old technology anyway.
What little may be gained for often limited time saving in many instances in no way justify the costs involved as economic experts have already said.

Furthermore some communities are losing existing services without replacement, when an update would have been much more advisable and advantageous for all concerned.

As for export orders, they're all pie in the sky until successfully completed within budget and on schedule and you only have to look at the AVE project amongst numerous others to see the catalogue of expensive past and ongoing failures in that respect, so if they fail so miserably on home turf, I wouldn't hold my breath for them bringing home the bacon abroad.

agoreira Jul 5th 2013 8:50 am
Re: Train development news
 
Originally Posted by johnnyone (Post 10786320)
You do not appear to have answered my question. What is the cost of the AVE and what is the return? Or to put it another way, how much does it lose per passenger mile.
A decent article here, although it doesn't give the figures you are looking for.
http://algargos.lacoctelera.net/post...obre-tren-alta
Revealing figures,especially when you think Tokyo-Osaka carries 235,000 compared with Madrid-Barcelona's 9,000.
El Madrid-Sevilla (con 20 años de vigencia) suma un promedio de uso de 14.000 pasajeros por kilómetro, algo más que el Madrid-Barcelona (9.000), pero muy lejos del París-Lyon (59.000), el Colonia-Fráncfort (51.000) y no digamos el Tokio-Osaka (235.000).
Like DD says, spending huge amounts of money to gain very little time on ocassions.
O se gastan miles de millones de euros para ganar un cuarto de hora en un viaje.
Amazingly, all this huge investment is to move 1% of passengers in Spain!!!!! Not elitist travel? I rest my case with that one!
La inversión en líneas de alta velocidad ha supuesto una ingente movilización de recursos públicos (45.000 millones de euros) para dar servicio sólo al 1% de la movilidad de pasajeros en España.
Spain moves very little goods by train, you'd think maybe they'd take advantage of the fine new fast tracks. Can't do it, the electrical system is exclusive to the AVE!

me me Jul 5th 2013 9:12 am
Re: Train development news
 
Originally Posted by agoreira (Post 10786407)
A decent article here, although it doesn't give the figures you are looking for.
http://algargos.lacoctelera.net/post...obre-tren-alta
Revealing figures,especially when you think Tokyo-Osaka carries 235,000 compared with Madrid-Barcelona's 9,000.
El Madrid-Sevilla (con 20 años de vigencia) suma un promedio de uso de 14.000 pasajeros por kilómetro, algo más que el Madrid-Barcelona (9.000), pero muy lejos del París-Lyon (59.000), el Colonia-Fráncfort (51.000) y no digamos el Tokio-Osaka (235.000).
Like DD says, spending huge amounts of money to gain very little time on ocassions.
O se gastan miles de millones de euros para ganar un cuarto de hora en un viaje.
Amazingly, all this huge investment is to move 1% of passengers in Spain!!!!! Not elitist travel? I rest my case with that one!
La inversión en líneas de alta velocidad ha supuesto una ingente movilización de recursos públicos (45.000 millones de euros) para dar servicio sólo al 1% de la movilidad de pasajeros en España.
Spain moves very little goods by train, you'd think maybe they'd take advantage of the fine new fast tracks. Can't do it, the electrical system is exclusive to the AVE!
And who would want to travel with those passengers anyway, wannabes, moaning well off pensioners and middle class plonkers and Rsoles with the Marie Antoinette outlook.

:eek::eek:

rugbymatt Jul 5th 2013 9:15 am
Re: Train development news
 
Anyone else bored yet?

me me Jul 5th 2013 9:17 am
Re: Train development news
 
Originally Posted by rugbymatt (Post 10786440)
Anyone else bored yet?
I am.

jimenato Jul 5th 2013 9:20 am
Re: Train development news
 
Me dos.

Or should that be me me?

Actually I did quite enjoy this thread when it started but it's gone all argumentative.:(

me me Jul 5th 2013 9:26 am
Re: Train development news
 
Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 10786446)
Me dos.

Or should that be me me?

Actually I did quite enjoy this thread when it started but it's gone all argumentative.:(
Well there are so only so many posts that can agree that the AVE is the 8th wonder of the world, before people start to question the viability/disadvantages/costs and how it will keep running etc, especially when the country is on its knees.

And of course the biggest fan of the AVE does not even live in Spain and worships this vanity project from afar.

agoreira Jul 5th 2013 9:36 am
Re: Train development news
 
Originally Posted by rugbymatt (Post 10786440)
Anyone else bored yet?
Nope, but generally if a thread bores me, I stop reading it. Try it, trust me, it works.

rugbymatt Jul 5th 2013 10:07 am
Re: Train development news
 
Originally Posted by agoreira (Post 10786460)
Nope, but generally if a thread bores me, I stop reading it. Try it, trust me, it works.
Yeah but where's the fun in that?

Domino Jul 5th 2013 11:10 am
Re: Train development news
 
Originally Posted by agoreira (Post 10786407)
A decent article here, although it doesn't give the figures you are looking for.
http://algargos.lacoctelera.net/post...obre-tren-alta
Revealing figures,especially when you think Tokyo-Osaka carries 235,000 compared with Madrid-Barcelona's 9,000.
El Madrid-Sevilla (con 20 años de vigencia) suma un promedio de uso de 14.000 pasajeros por kilómetro, algo más que el Madrid-Barcelona (9.000), pero muy lejos del París-Lyon (59.000), el Colonia-Fráncfort (51.000) y no digamos el Tokio-Osaka (235.000).
Like DD says, spending huge amounts of money to gain very little time on ocassions.
O se gastan miles de millones de euros para ganar un cuarto de hora en un viaje.
Amazingly, all this huge investment is to move 1% of passengers in Spain!!!!! Not elitist travel? I rest my case with that one!
La inversión en líneas de alta velocidad ha supuesto una ingente movilización de recursos públicos (45.000 millones de euros) para dar servicio sólo al 1% de la movilidad de pasajeros en España.
Spain moves very little goods by train, you'd think maybe they'd take advantage of the fine new fast tracks. Can't do it, the electrical system is exclusive to the AVE!
whilst I can see a point there, it surely becomes lost when you start comparing the population and the need.
Osaka-Tokyo is a commute for many thousands every day.
Madrid-Barcelona is a commute for a few hundred every day.
But it took the bullet to give the people what they wanted and increased the useage - so it shows that the infrastructure improved the wellbeing of the masses.
the only problem is cman won't like it if the masses start using a middle class mode of transport.
what next - First Class coaches ??

Dick Dasterdly Jul 5th 2013 11:51 am
Re: Train development news
 
Originally Posted by rugbymatt (Post 10786475)
Yeah but where's the fun in that?
Ah well, just to lift the depressing mood surrounding the Great Spanish train catastrophe, try this.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFJ3KayeUTc

Great shots in there of some real trains for all the devoted trainspotters amongst you.

agoreira Jul 5th 2013 7:37 pm
Re: Train development news
 
Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly (Post 10786556)
Ah well, just to lift the depressing mood surrounding the Great Spanish train catastrophe, try this.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFJ3KayeUTc

Great shots in there of some real trains for all the devoted trainspotters amongst you.
Did I see something in UK about a gathering of real trains, some famous steam engines. Just looked it up, the anoraks will be out in force, maybe the MOP will be there, I've never known anyone show more interest in trains.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23158002

me me Jul 5th 2013 7:43 pm
Re: Train development news
 
Originally Posted by agoreira (Post 10786830)
Did I see something in UK about a gathering of real trains, some famous steam engines. Just looked it up, the anoraks will be out in force, maybe the MOP will be there, I've never known anyone show more interest in trains.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23158002
Are you saying that he is a "closet" fat controller?:lol:


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