Yes, those those things have benefitted a lot of people. Both people who made legitimate contributions, and those who don't.

But it's also served to substantially lower the bar of what we need to contribute to sustain a prosperous life, which is arguably, a good thing. I'd argue that the system is more beneficial to those with resources, more than to those without.

Collectively, we now live pretty well without having to contribute nearly as much as our previous generations, but we have increasingly set expectations that we are still victims (despite our relative prosperity), entitled to receive increasingly more with decreasing contribution - and worse, those who do contribute more are increasingly penalised to enable those who contribute less - to enjoy similar benefits as those who do. That's very attractive to those who would prefer to contribute less and receive more. Welcome to human nature.

So, whilst it's nice to have all these benefits and entitlements, it also serves to de-motivate us, and make us increasingly vindictive of anyone who dares to reap the rewards of exceptional contribution.

At some point, the numbers don't add up anymore. And I think we're beginning to see it.

People want to prosper. But the more prosperity is penalised, the motivation to "get around" the many hurdles intended to "equalise" prosperity becomes pretty attractive - and therefore it's natural that we'd see increasingly "unethical" behaviour in pursuit of that.

- and I suspect that is what most people really object to, if not simply the inevitable jealousy of your neighbour who contributed many years of hard work and dedication, and rightly receives a couple million salary for establishing and managing a successful enterprise - even perfectly honest businesses - something that's extremely difficult to establish and manage in this era of increasing distrust, jealousy and vindictiveness against anyone who would manage to prosper in these tough times.

Think about it. Virtually no successful business (or politician, I might add) is free of harsh criticism from the public, no matter how they conduct their affairs - honestly or not, competently or not, it's no-win. Add to that the many regulations and restrictions imposed - Frankly I don't know how you could be in business these days without breaking some rules.

Christ, when the biggest news story is about the criminal politician whose wife took his speeding points, it just makes me pretty sad for the guy who can't sell his perfectly good vegetables to a German customer because he doesn't meet strict EU regulations designed to give the largest producers the advantage. And we're most worried about someone's wife taking their speeding points?

No, we aren't there yet, but if we continue on this path, we will eventually all be impoverished, and if history is any guide, a social dictatorship will likely be our saviour... you can already see the trend beginning.

Afterwards, the revolution to again become free and prosperous will start all over again.. And those who'd be first in line to destroy capitalism would also be the first in line to revolt against the alternative.

There's no poverty of irony these days.

I don't think people are jealous and vindictive about people who work hard, take responsible and well-judged risks, and are successful as a result - and provide employment for other people in so doing. It is when people are perceived as receiving hugely disproportionate reward for having failed that others get angry, quite rightly so in my opinion.

Being a socialist does NOT mean that one believes everyone should be rewarded equally, whatever their contribution or lack of it. Take an organisation like the John Lewis Partnership, a wonderful business model and a successful one - every employee (or partner) receives the same percentage share of a bonus if the company does well, but a shop assistant is not paid the same amount in salary as the CEO, and nobody would suggest they should be. Nobody is more keen on the maintenance of pay differentials than a trade unionist!

However, when a bank CEO cuts thousands of low paid jobs in their organisation, outsources functions to cheap overseas labour resulting in a lower level of service to the customer, presides over stupid risks being taken with other people's money, makes bad decisions about takeovers, leaving the organisation having to be bailed out by the taxpayer,and then walks away with billions in bonuses and a massive pension, yes people are angry, why wouldn't they be?

thanks for trying to explain the skiing serario is a bit better but not much, because my take on the Cman senario is, that the skiers pay 30euros for the burger and chips.

But then not everyone in the ski resort is worth the same, so the boot cleaner and snow sweeper should pay 5 ish euros and the mega wealthy with their own ski lodge should pay loads more.



Chaos total chaos.

Here in London, if I fancy a burger and a beer I have plenty of places to choose from. Cheapest is Wetherspoons - but more expensive than the rest of the country at about £6. Other pubs are a tad more expensive and I'll be looking at £9 or so (and the Brake Bros burger won't be any better really). Then you get the gastro pubs where a burger and a pint will knock you back closer to £15, but it is probably decent meat! So you do have a choice, depending on the ambience and quality you are looking for.
The owners of a newly open bar have given me a VIP pass that entitles me to 10% off. Unfortunately they haven't started serving meals yet.
Like Spain, most bars will display a price list, so theoretically you cannot be over-charged. However in the last few weeks, we've twice had a bill for a meal that included far more drinks than we'd had (once in an Indian place, the other in a Portuguese establishment). In both cases we queried the bill and got it changed without any hassle. But I do wonder if it's a common attempt at a rip-off here, or just the waiters being overworked.
With the exception of a badly-staffed Valencian place, I can't remember being "over-charged" in a Spanish establishment, and as I mentioned earlier I was quite often "invited" to a free round by bar owners in Madrid. This used to happen years ago in the UK where regulars would get bought a round "on the house" every now and again. Sadly, since the rise of the pubco and the contraction of proper pubs, this seems quite rare nowadays.

So it's a pub pissing contest we have now, eh.

There are so many variable factors that it's ridiculous trying to make a fair comparison, however as just one simple example, in view of the fact that most Spanish bars don't seem to have had a face lift or even a brass farthing spent on them in the last half a century and many much longer than that, it would be surprising if their costs and prices weren't lower than the UK on average.

This is so true, and touches very much on the same themes as the Frugal living thread. That is why I'm prepared to say at the moment "I can't pay the 'English price' ". Because you have to identify yourself when it's assumed that all expats have money to throw around. To some it's a matter of pride to pay top whack for percieved luxury... Whether it be the number of stars on their hotel or the label on their sunglasses. To some (me included, I have to admit) it's almost a matter of pride *not* to do so. Well. If you aren't one of the 'haves' who are they to dictate where you get your "pride" from!
It may appear wrong on the surface that "they see you coming". But if you are a 'have' and want to be seen that way. it's an advert for the price you're prepared to pay.
Interesting job Cman. Must give you quite an insight into the psychology of spending.

so true, both of you. Same product, different packaging and pricing aimed at different demographics. See it all the time.

It happens here in our village I'm afraid.

One restaurant we went to when we first moved here more-or-less doubled our bill for food and drinks. We only realised later when it was too late to do anything. We simply didn't go back there and told everyone we knew - turns out it happens to everyone the restaurateur thinks isn't a local.

In another one a friend was with a group having beer and tapas and managed to get the initial bill of 80 Euros reduced in stages to a more realistic 25.

It's a pretty stupid way of trying to make money.

You've completely missed the point.
As the ownership of pubs has changed, and the big breweries and pubcos have demanded ever increasing returns from their investment, the old style pub where you know the landlord and landlady (and they'd reward regular customers with the occasional drink on the house) has tended to disappear from the landscape. Although no doubt some will claim they still exist where they live, it's over 20 years since I was last offered a drink on the house in the UK.
Being invited to a drink by the bar owner has been fairly common to me in Spain in recent years, particularly in Madrid. I accept though this may be about to change, with the expansion of the chains like 100 Montaditos and Lizarran. More's the pity.

It does seem foolish, when you spend so much on marketing and publicity to try and get customers to your establishment.
There again, maybe I'm tight, but I do tend to check the bill. I'm not capable nowadays of drinking a lot, so I tend to notice quickly if extra drinks have been added to the bill.
I am surprised this happens in a village too, as the offenders would quickly gain a poor reputation. I never noticed over-charging in Madrid establishments, but I'm sure it happens in some places. Maybe I've just been lucky (although as I mentioned previously the Guiri has a different rep in the capital and is perhaps seen as more of an asset-customer rather than one to fleece).

The "drink on the house" has always happened on the CDS at the end of a meal. Built into the price at tourist joints. Happens in Greece too.

Haven't come across different prices on the CDS...they fleece everyone equally In the News cafe in Banus it was part of our entertainment watching peoples faces when they got the tab, especially the Spaniards

I was once in Albania for 3 days when it was under the old regime. I didn't take any cigarettes, expecting them to be dirt cheap. No shops, just kiosks...they wanted the equivalent of £5 for a pack! Mentioned it to a hotel waiter and he got them for me for less than 50p per pack!

Yes, that's one of the reasons I've never been tempted to visit Marbella.

On reflection there is one place in Madrid where people have told me over-pricing is very common. The Plaza Mayor. Even the official prices for terrace sitting in the sun are sky-high. It's a great place to wander through, but if you fancy something to eat or drink, try a street or two away.

You obviously go to all the wrong places Stevie, there again spending so much time in London what else do you expect ?
Either that or they remember your mush too well and think here comes that scrounger Stevie, looking for a freebie again.

It's common enough practice in my neck of the woods.
I even get a meal on the house once in a while, meaning a proper meal not one of your scrattie tapas.

Where it does happen legitimately is bars have different prices depending on where you sit.
At the bar , inside at a table or outside on the terrace.
Three areas three different prices

Stevie. I'll give you a pint on the house anytime your down my way. As I do with lots of my regulars