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Lack of bribery in Spain

Lack of bribery in Spain

Old Jul 11th 2013, 8:43 pm
  #31  
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Default Re: Lack of bribery in Spain

There is something wrong this survey.

According to the data, 21% of UK citizens have paid a bribe to the judiciary in the last 12 months.

I don't believe it. I don't think that 21% of UK citizens have had any dealings at all with the judiciary in the last 12 months let alone bribe them.

I will look further - but I'm beginning to smell a rat...
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Old Jul 11th 2013, 8:53 pm
  #32  
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Default Re: Lack of bribery in Spain

This is not straightforward.

This report, which is based upon expert opinion rather than public perception puts Spain 30th in the world and the UK 17th.
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Old Jul 11th 2013, 9:10 pm
  #33  
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Default Re: Lack of bribery in Spain

A few years ago I had an old car with a five litre V8 engine. It failed the emissions test at the MOT centre, my own fault because I had forgotten to put in the magic additive which confuses the emissions machine.

I picked up my wife who was visiting her pal who is married to a Guardia and casually mentioned it in conversation. He was there and asked me for the car keys. He returned ten minutes later with a new ITV.

I gave him 50 Euros. Was that a bribe?
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Old Jul 11th 2013, 9:11 pm
  #34  
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Default Re: Lack of bribery in Spain

Originally Posted by jimenato
This is not straightforward.

This report, which is based upon expert opinion rather than public perception puts Spain 30th in the world and the UK 17th.
That is a corruption perceptions index, which is different

Bribery to access public services is just one element of corruption. The two studies are measuring different things

Political corruption in Spain is huge, it usually takes the form of politicians, the cajas and big business conspiring to make themselves rich using public money - actually no bribery is involved
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Old Jul 11th 2013, 9:11 pm
  #35  
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Default Re: Lack of bribery in Spain

Originally Posted by jimenato
This is not straightforward.

This report, which is based upon expert opinion rather than public perception puts Spain 30th in the world and the UK 17th.
Both reports are from the same source, same company, same questionable tactics.
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Old Jul 11th 2013, 9:11 pm
  #36  
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Default Re: Lack of bribery in Spain

Originally Posted by HBG
A few years ago I had an old car with a five litre V8 engine. It failed the emissions test at the MOT centre, my own fault because I had forgotten to put in the magic additive which confuses the emissions machine.

I picked up my wife who was visiting her pal who is married to a Guardia and casually mentioned it in conversation. He was there and asked me for the car keys. He returned ten minutes later with a new ITV.

I gave him 50 Euros. Was that a bribe?
Yes
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Old Jul 11th 2013, 9:12 pm
  #37  
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Default Re: Lack of bribery in Spain

Originally Posted by jimenato
There is something wrong this survey.

According to the data, 21% of UK citizens have paid a bribe to the judiciary in the last 12 months.

I don't believe it. I don't think that 21% of UK citizens have had any dealings at all with the judiciary in the last 12 months let alone bribe them.

I will look further - but I'm beginning to smell a rat...
I have to agree with this point. Although there is no doubt there is plenty of corruption in different levels of the country (probably in all countries), most people surely get by without having to deal with the judiciary if at all possible?
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Old Jul 11th 2013, 9:29 pm
  #38  
 
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Default Re: Lack of bribery in Spain

Originally Posted by HBG
A few years ago I had an old car with a five litre V8 engine. It failed the emissions test at the MOT centre, my own fault because I had forgotten to put in the magic additive which confuses the emissions machine.

I picked up my wife who was visiting her pal who is married to a Guardia and casually mentioned it in conversation. He was there and asked me for the car keys. He returned ten minutes later with a new ITV.

I gave him 50 Euros. Was that a bribe?
Nah, it was payment for doing something for you

I like this explanation from Wikipedia
Bribery is an act of giving money or gift giving that alters the behavior of the recipient. Bribery constitutes a crime and is defined by Black's Law Dictionary as the offering, giving, receiving, or soliciting of any item of value to influence the actions of an official or other person in charge of a public or legal duty.

The bribe is the gift bestowed to influence the recipient's conduct.........
You didn't know what he was going to do (although you had an idea), and from what you say you never altered his behaviour or offered him anything to do it.

ok semantics, but here in Spain a policeman who is convicted and imprisoned for theft can return to his job when he comes out.
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Old Jul 11th 2013, 9:39 pm
  #39  
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Default Re: Lack of bribery in Spain

Originally Posted by jimenato
There is something wrong this survey.

According to the data, 21% of UK citizens have paid a bribe to the judiciary in the last 12 months.

I don't believe it. I don't think that 21% of UK citizens have had any dealings at all with the judiciary in the last 12 months let alone bribe them.

I will look further - but I'm beginning to smell a rat...
No, I don't believe it either. I'm not saying brown envelopes or the like don't happen in UK, there's a degree of corruption everywhere, but I've never even heard of anyone that I know even mention bribes, let alone pay one. I often wonder who they ask all these questions to in surveys, I've never been asked in my life.
El mapa de corrupción en Espaa.



My problem is that Spain itself is always featuring the problem of corruption in the press, they recognise it goes on on a grand scale, there are thousands of cases before the courts, so if it is less corrupt than UK, why isn't the UK press listing thousands of similar cases? Because investigative journalist in UK are always digging into politicians dealing etc, why aren't they turning up thousands of cases.
Los casos de corrupción que ocupan cada día las portadas de todos los periódicos han disparado la preocupación de los españoles por este motivo y han empeorado notablemente la visión que tienen los ciudadanos de los políticos.

Last edited by agoreira; Jul 11th 2013 at 9:41 pm.
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Old Jul 11th 2013, 9:42 pm
  #40  
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Default Re: Lack of bribery in Spain

Originally Posted by cricketman
Hardly abstract evidence

Market research studies are exactly how things like this are proven. There is no other way, you can hardly go and audit something like bribery. You have to ask for people's opinions and perceptions

The way British expats deny the evidence when it does not back up their world-view reminds me of Freud's definition of denial. Why is it so important for you to put down the country you live in? Why is this so important to your ego? Does it offend your very identity if you admit that even one thing works well or is better in one country than in the country of your birth?

It reeks of massive insecurity - basing your own value on the assumption that everyone else is morally corrupt so by consequence you are amazing
Well, as you have historically used any obscure evidence you can find to prove that everything outside your little sphere is sinister and everything inside is perfect, it's no surprise you would submit an opinion piece veiled as a "statistic" which compares nationalities who engage in bribery for "public services", which ironically, the vast majority of people legally registered in their respective countries have little, if any motivation to engage in it, yet you proclaim it to be "proof" of how corrupt other nationalities are. Surely you'll disagree, but that sounds like pretty abstract rationale to me.

But even better is your continued denial of reality, despite all widely-published facts and statistics, as well as most people's experiences to the contrary, whilst arrogantly proclaiming everyone who disagrees with you to be in denial or "racist", is amusingly consistent hypocritical behaviour on your part, which you apparently don't even realise is point-blank obvious.

And for me, that makes you amongst the most amusing of all participants here. Like a mini-Monty Python. And better yet, it's apparently not even a facade - you obviously come by it honestly. I truly love you for this. I miss you terribly when you're gone :-)

Anyway, considering that alone, plus your historical exhibition of unswerving self-rightiousness, I contend that the reasons for starting this thread in the first place seem pretty apparent. Much ado about nothing.

Oh, and by the way. I have a little suggestion for you:

Watch RT. Really. I think RT are amongst the world's best masters of spin.

Only on this channel will you become convinced that everything Russia does is clean, transparent, and a shining example of how a modern democracy should be, whilst every other country is sinister, self-serving and corrupt, and effectively, world class enemies of society. Whatever is in the news, they spin it in such a way that always proves that everyone else is bad, and Russia is good.

...and they are very, very good at appearing highly credible and "balanced", and understand the concept of "suspension of disbelief" equally as well or better than the best movie producers on the planet. No doubt they could do a human interest piece comparing Mother Teresa and Ivana Trump and leave you believing in no uncertain terms that Ivana Trump is the far more credible of the two. They're just that good.

Anyway, since you are a self-proclaimed expert in PR and "marketing", I thought you could benefit from that. Just don't get too wrapped up in it. It's all just made-up propaganda. But probably the best there is.

Last edited by amideislas; Jul 11th 2013 at 9:50 pm.
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Old Jul 11th 2013, 11:17 pm
  #41  
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Default Re: Lack of bribery in Spain

http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/07/11/...40_759996.html


Also on a previous occasion.

"Hércules was investigated in 2010 for allegedly buying results in the season it won promotion to Primera. Principal shareholder Enrique Ortiz was recorded offering bribes to opposition teams. The recordings were made as part of the Brugal corruption case, an investigation into corruption in the waste management business in Alicante, but were never handed to the LFP as the judge handling the Brugal investigation considered it would constitute an "invasion of privacy." Little matter — match-fixing was not made a crime in Spain until later that same year."

Last edited by Dick Dasterdly; Jul 11th 2013 at 11:20 pm.
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Old Jul 12th 2013, 1:49 am
  #42  
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Default Re: Lack of bribery in Spain

Originally Posted by agoreira
No, I don't believe it either. I'm not saying brown envelopes or the like don't happen in UK, there's a degree of corruption everywhere, but I've never even heard of anyone that I know even mention bribes, let alone pay one. I often wonder who they ask all these questions to in surveys, I've never been asked in my life.
El mapa de corrupción en Espaa.

http://www.cadenaser.com/recorte/201...PLeaks-com.jpg

My problem is that Spain itself is always featuring the problem of corruption in the press, they recognise it goes on on a grand scale, there are thousands of cases before the courts, so if it is less corrupt than UK, why isn't the UK press listing thousands of similar cases? Because investigative journalist in UK are always digging into politicians dealing etc, why aren't they turning up thousands of cases.
Christ, I must live in the most corrupt place in Spain, I can't even see the name of my city under all those little flags.
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Old Jul 12th 2013, 2:01 am
  #43  
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Default Re: Lack of bribery in Spain

Originally Posted by HBG
Christ, I must live in the most corrupt place in Spain, I can't even see the name of my city under all those little flags.
You and me both.
Looks like they're all at it up around our neck of the woods,

....though wait,..shock, horror !

Do I see a couple of flags up near Oviedo ?

Now I know it can't be true.
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Old Jul 12th 2013, 2:06 am
  #44  
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Default Re: Lack of bribery in Spain

Originally Posted by HBG
A few years ago I had an old car with a five litre V8 engine. It failed the emissions test at the MOT centre, my own fault because I had forgotten to put in the magic additive which confuses the emissions machine.

I picked up my wife who was visiting her pal who is married to a Guardia and casually mentioned it in conversation. He was there and asked me for the car keys. He returned ten minutes later with a new ITV.

I gave him 50 Euros. Was that a bribe?
No. In Italy it would be called 'regalino' (little thank you present).
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Old Jul 12th 2013, 2:42 am
  #45  
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Default Re: Lack of bribery in Spain

Originally Posted by Domino
Nah, it was payment for doing something for you

I like this explanation from Wikipedia


You didn't know what he was going to do (although you had an idea), and from what you say you never altered his behaviour or offered him anything to do it.

ok semantics, but here in Spain a policeman who is convicted and imprisoned for theft can return to his job when he comes out.
erm, lawyers and politicians, too.

I was in a lawsuit a number of years back that had to be delayed until the plaintiff's lawyer had finished his jail sentence for fraud.

This is another of those things unique to Spain that is completely inconceivable in the UK or most of Europe.
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