To be a catholic in much of the developed western world was to be a second class citizen. Even as recently as the 1960,s the election of Kennedy as the first Catholic President was an issue.
Catholics were excluded from government and society.
Catholics did not get the vote and legal acceptance in the UK until the 19th century.
So it is no surprise that this exclusion and treatment as second class citizens has resulted in a lack of progress in morality and behaviour.
It is ironic that the recent steps toward sainthood for past popes included John who tried to bring the church into the 20th century and John Paul who was a rightwing reactionary.
The structure of the Church gives the popes and cardinal huge amounts of power and infleunce which they have not used for the good.
The result 19th century aititudes and practices continue to this day.
This has to change.
Governments cannot change the behaviour of priests and nuns, the direction has to come from Rome.

I don't think you understand the point. It isn't about the moral problem or exclusion from power, though that is certainly not the case in Ireland. That is the OP's country of contention on this topic.

Priests, Cardinals etc are answerable to the law of the land in which crimes are committed and they are not being compliant to their obligations by hiding the truth, moving and protecting wrongdoers and generally corrupting the everyday duty of care they owe to those in their care. A few have been brought to justice but it is not even the tip of the iceberg, it is somewhere between a snowball and a flake.

I agree with you, we can discuss at length the problems that are coming to light now about past actions but it needs a dramatic change of atitude from Rome to stop such acts if they are still continuing today or prevent them in the future.
In countries like Ireland where the church is one of the pillars of society the law may say one thing but traditional atitudes are another.
I cannot see any Irish politician or police chief taking on the church heirachy.
However if the message from Rome was crystal clear , priest or Cardinal if you break the law you are on your own, , we disown you even excommunicate you things may change.

That's it in a nutshell. They should also hand over any evidence they have, documentary or otherwise.

The new Pope does seem to be making in roads into this and we will have to see if it is just more smoke and mirrors.

Another question is how to break the power that the church has over the minds of people.

Mexico tried to deal with it at the beginning of the 20th century by such things as secularizing education and forbidding priests to wear their robes in the street with the idea of reducing their influence.

In Ireland, the priests didn't come and grab the girls or the babies -their own families disowned them and handed them over to those awful places.

Good point LIW.
When you consider how proud the family is, when what was traditionally the oldest son, became a Preist. Regardless of the fact he was often a red blooded male, interested in playing Gaelic Football, Hurling, swigging a few pints and pulling a good Irish lass...or two!

Nuns 'abused hundreds of children' - News - The Independent .It was bad in the UK too.

that will be very difficult to do, in the same way as breaking the power of mind instilled into those who follow Sinn Fein and the IRA. The kids were taught to hate Protestants from their birth and hated and chanted all the anti-Protestant chants before they could chant their Catholic church chants.

the families firmly believed they were giving their children up to the church to enable them to have a better life. Poor misguided fools.

A simple initial move would be to stop the pilgrimage from the new US President to affirm his/her Irish roots. Many are more tenuous than mine - which are nil.

I doubt that applies to Obama.

You obviously have not spent much time in the Shankill and other " prod " areas of NI.
Each is as bad as the other.

They are not above the law, even though they are viewed that way.

<<<@!1!@>>>

Reply to EMR's last post.

Oh ?

It does, he's made many references to it over the years. Which is stupid really because his ancestry is mostly English on his mother's side and Kenyan on his father's.

you have doubts about something ??
chalking that up as a first admission of failure - so you are not as infallible as you pretend to the world

Claiming false Irishness (Plastic Paddy-ism) is common. Anyone reading this thread must wonder what the attraction is.

The prorestant-catholic hatred was quite mutual it wasn't one - sided and wasn't just about religion either.

On the other - pregnant unmarried girls were repudiated by their own families and wre often the victims of violence at their hands. They were sent away to be shamed and punished, not in the hope of a better life. That is the power of dogma, superstition, and prejudice toward one segment of society, in this case girls.