Jon-Bxl

Thanks SL, Mike and John for the replies.

Its up to us now to make a decision as to whether we take a simple journey to the town hall and sign up and put pressure on the officials to listen to us.

We have an opportunity to overturn the Mayors small majority for example - or make him realise that its long overdue to start considering the needs of a big part of the Ayamonte region... and make some appropriate actions to try gain our confidence and possibly our vote!

Jon

Carol&John

Aahhh, a new day! Best to sleep on some things and look at it afresh..!

Thanks again MikeJ for your input, much appreciated.

Thanks, John&Kath for the review of the status quo. Wish I could have joined you in that schooner of red.

Good to see S_L back and posting, too.

OK, back to the subject of the Padrón. Please correct my understanding of the Padrón from this checklist:
- The Padrón is a census.
- It is confidential.
- It is used only at local, administrative level (by the Ayuntamiento).
- The ayuntamiento must review the Padrón monthly.
- Only numbers are sent to central government.
- It appears you do not have to be "resident" in Spain (more than 183 days in a year) to sign on to the Padrón.
- You have a choice whether or not you wish to further sign on to the Voters' List at the Ayuntamiento, allowing you only to vote at local (Municipal) elections.
- The Voters' List is NOT the same as the Electoral Roll for which you need to send in your details, including NATIONALITY AND PROOF OF RESIDENCY IN SPAIN. (It can be done online. See the link in John&Kath's post #40).

IS IT AT THIS STAGE WHERE THE CONFUSION ARISES?

My understanding is that you can not be "resident" in more than one country.
If you declare yourself resident in Spain, then your tax implications (eg. bank account) come under Spanish law.

Looking forward to some concrete answers here. Many thanks in advance.

MikeJ

You need to be a Resident to vote in Spanish national elections, not municipal - for which you need a residence and NIE (or equivalent).

[Just as an interesting red herring - in the UK you need to be domiciled in the UK, ie your main home is in the UK - not necessarily resident. Hence all the fuss about non-doms and their tax]

Fred James

To sign on the padron you must sign on in the municipality where you habitually reside.

That would exclude anyone with a holiday home who is normally resident outside Spain.

The law is pretty clear on this point.

Toda persona que viva en España está obligada a inscribirse en el padrón del municipio en el que resida habitualmente. Quien viva en varios municipios deberá inscribirse únicamente en el que habite más tiempo al año.

That said, many municipalities still allow non residents to sign on.

In many areas they will insist on a certificate of registration on the foreigners register - although this does not necessarily prove permanent residency.

Jon-Bxl

Thanks Fred we seem to have a little difference of views in the posts here.

My objective is to vote in the MAYORAL election in Ayamonte. Not anything else - with no 'overheads' involved, as mentioned earlier, (apart from the initial sign up at the town hall)

You also say 'That said, many municipalities still allow non residents to sign on'

It seems like Ayamonte is cool about second home owners and non-residents signing on the padron and even voting in the mayoral elections. Even though we are not legally entitled to.

Is this really the case in Ayamonte, please? Any ideas? Just trying to get to the bottom line so all know where we stand at CE/Ayamonte.

Seems weird to me.... is there a way to achieve my objective as a non-resident please?


Thanks
Jon

Fred James

Only Spanish citizens can vote in national elections.

Carol&John

It appears to be a play on words here and only the law/lawyers can make it clear.

As MikeJ pointed out, there is a distinction between the words "reside" and "domicile". I see also that in Spanish law (Ley # ...) the words "vecino", "domiciliado" are used when dealing with the Padron. HOWEVER, when it comes to the electoral roll, the word "residente" is used.

In the UK, there are two electoral rolls: one municipal, the other parliamentary. Same in Spain?

PLAIN SPEAKING PLEASE!

P.S. Fred, many thanks for your input, but do you think when it says "obligado", by law residents in Spain must sign on the padron, but non-residents are not "obliged(obligated?) by law" to do so?

Jon-Bxl

Im taking a total shot in the dark here. Trying to decipher and get to the bottom line:

It seems like to vote in the mayoral elections AS A NON RESIDENT SECOND HOME OWNER - you have to

1. Get on the Padron (covered above) - this seems easy in Ayamonte as other non-residents have done it

2. Do 'something else' later on to get on the electoral list. This next step may involve legal issues that Fred mentions earlier.

I think this second step, i.e the 'something else' is the key thing to investigate for me.... so if anyone is sure about it - please share...

Thanks
Jon

CAROL TAFF

Please confirm this is correct. When does/did it become active? What is the claiming mechanism? Can I claim retrospectively or only from 2010 onwards?

Also, what is a legitimate expense? Presumably, the costs of repair/maintenance is OK, but what about utility bills, or even mortgage repayments?

Taff

EsuriJohn

It is not entirely clear and I don't think we will get to the bottom of this. The system as I have obseved it is:-

The Ayuntamiento allow owners and long term renters to sign on the Padron the qualification seems to be that you have either an Escritura as an owner or a contract for a long term let.

1.They do not seem to operate a review at all since when I asked if they would issue me a new certificate they declined saying if I did not need it for something specific such as car purchase I would be better waiting until it was needed. However they did take my new address instead of my Parcela number and that is recorded as I watched them make the change.

This is in their interest since the grant from central government is per capita.

An interesting aside here is that this year Ayamonte celebrated passing through the 20,000 population mark with all that entails extra councillors, more functions discharged by the Ayuntamiento and not by the Province and more grant. Of course Ayamonte has a very large summer population when its two satallite towns Isla Canela and Costa Esuri fill with holiday makers my guess would be that the population trebles They therefore need the extra grant to operate in summer.

2. The voters list is kept separate from the padron since when you have signed on the padron you have to go upstairs to sign on the local voters list. They do not make this clear.

The electoral roll for Europe is operated at Provincial level and they must get their information off the Padron since when they sent me the form to sign it was correctly addressed as per my changes to the Padron made last autumn.

3. We need Freds wise council for this one and I don't even think he will give a definative answer. You can be resident in more than one place by spending time in each and owning property in each. However the definition comes down to various kinds residency such as tax where rules such as 183 days for Spain operate alongside 90 days for UK meaning it is possible to be tax resident in both but not overtaxed since they operate a double taxation treaty. Or driving licences where it would seem you would have to take a change to a Spanish licence if you drive a Spanish registered car and are here for more than three months. Or your car registration having to be moved if you have your UK car in Spain for 3 months.

None of that even touches "Domicile" where you practically have to be dead to remove your UK domicile and that only after HMRC have taken their slice of your estate.

EsuriJohn

Well spotted I am not the expert here but if you were declaring rental income as a resident with a second property then it has been suggested that you could even claim for your SKY subs. The non - resident has now been brought into line with this by Europe so perhaps they will tighten up the criteria so that they do not lose too much tax take. A good Gestoria may be best at doing the first one under the new rules as just like a good tax accountant in UK they will know just how far they can push the the boundary before the tax man bites back.

EsuriJohn

This next step seems in Ayamonte to be to climb a flight of stairs and sign on the voters list no more than that though they do not tell you that down stairs. I may be cynical but perhaps it is not in the incumbent Mayors interest to let everyone know that is what you have to do. He wants the prestige of more than 20,000 people but not the responsibility of having to face all of those as voters.

Teed Up

Try,NumeroLogical specialise in Spanish tax,ask for Gary,no connection but he sorts mine out,

Ken.

Jon-Bxl

Thanks John, as ever...

it looks easy when you put it this way... but as Fred said its illegal for people like me. So this tells me that we cant sign up and vote. So there must be some sort of 'check and balance' somewhere.

I am totally cynical when it comes to our Mayor, so its in his interest to use the illegality of signing on to stop us 'climbing the stairs' - but he doesnt. Why not? We arent his fans - its probable that he will lose votes through us as we've both said!! So this tells me that we can sign up and vote...

Therefore it seems that there are 2 differing opinions here...

1. OK for non-residents to sign up and vote.... and
2. Illegal for us to do it

so I am confused. So I am still a cracked record on this subject!! Hence my last post about the 'next step'

Anyway lets chat about this over a beer and then get onto other things over the next FEW beers from tomorrow

I'm getting the feeling that this is more difficult than expected and the answer is not cut and dried - and undertandably no-one really knows the full answer.

I hope this will lead to a simple way where we can sign up, without 'overhead' and vote for our interests - and make things happen.
Jon

MikeJ

If you read Fred's post carefully - and particularly translate the Spanish legal requirement - it states that every person habitually living in Spain MUST sign on the padron. It does NOT say that temporary residents may NOT.
The fact that I and many other occasional residents have been allowed and encouraged to register (indeed it was our solicitor who suggested that we sign up) suggests that it is quite in order and legal.