Hola mis esurianos,

I have searched the forum again for the thread with the information, dated 2009, about the Appeal against payment of the EUC fee.

Page 19:
http://britishexpats.com/forum/ayamo...9/#post8135345

Are there people who have won their appeal (remember it was offered for free, but for a limited time)? If yes, then it would seem the next step is to bring forward a class action to abolish the EUC.

Sorry for raining on the parade.

It is very concerning when I hear people using the phrase "100% gutanteed". That phrase is never used in the litigations and arbitrations that I am involved in professionally.

I have recently received an email enclosing what is appears to be an advice on the merits of an action. The advice does not include the names of the respondent party...who is it? The EUC (a body that may not be properly incorporated) or the Town Hall?

If we win (again what is a win) and we know who we are winning against what do we get?

If we get back the money we paid to the EUC....does that money still exist?

If the Town Hall have to pay are they really going to roll over and pay up without a fight even if we win.....losing parties play dirty.....enforcement can take ages, challenges to jurisdaiction etc.

I have not seen the 100% guarantee that says we will win.....but if we dont is this a guarantee we can efnforce....does this lawyer provide an indemnity for us if we loose.

Now, if we have a such a sure fire case, then if we got one of the large national law firms of strong standing to write a letter setting ouy the case would that not bite.

In a nut shell I would like to a poper advice on the merits that sets the pro and cons.....what is the cost if we lose. Nothing is ever as easy as it seems and nothing is ever guranteed.

I would recommend a moment's reflection before embarking on a gadarene rush to litigation. What are the likely outcomes of a class action? And even if (and it's a big IF IMHO) it results in a win, probably many years from now, what do you get? A small amount, possibly, of refund and the satisfaction of sticking it to the Town Hall.

If my previous speculation - based on the only published numbers - is true and the EUC has been running on a substantial amount of credit, what happens on the day the action is filed? The debt asset has its risk profile reassessed - probably to its highest level because the liklihood of these debts being paid is now possibly nil; the creditor(s) immediately call in their loans. The EUC becomes technical insolvent and has to cease trading; all employees are laid off (probably without pay); all activity also ceases; CE starts to deteriorate; the value of your property plummets (who wants to buy in a wilderness?)
I know that Pablo Vicente has given lots of words of assurance that this cannot happen, but why would the Ayuntamiento pay for maintenance of CE when it's not even managing to pay its own employees, including the police? So, no offence meant, but words are easy to say.

So, win or lose the class action, we all stand to lose in the end. My question is - is it the potential reward actually worth the risk?

As I have said before, it's a better use of your money (and any legal assistance available) to fix the situation rather than try and tear it down because the latter course of action will almost certainly end in tears.

Suggest that the day after the class action is filed (not even won) the creditors will call in their loans is something improper for a management consultant, since, as you sure know, that is not going to happen.

But let's play for a moment, just for apocalypse purposes, to Walking Dead and suppose that Mike is right and the next day the class action is filed, a run happens and people begin to withdraw their money from the banks, they throw themselves by the windows and the creditors of the Town Hall immediately call in their loans. Should that happen, the Town Hall will become technical insolvent and has to cease trading; all employees are laid off (probably without pay); all activity also ceases...In that apocalypse world, and given the fact that Costa Esuri is the only part of Ayamonte whose IBI is stolen giving nothing in return and in addition asked to pay an extra fee to integrate a separate and independent budget for maintenance purposes (not to count the intercommunity fees), Costa Esuri will be the only part of the municipality of Ayamonte able to survive the apocalypse. Costa Esuri would be autosufficient, an oasis in a world of destruction. Costa Esuri will be the only land not to deteriorate (no more than now), the value of your property will increase exponentially (everyone would try to reach out to Costa Esuri), we will have to close the doors of Costa Esuri not to allow the entrance of thousand of people looking for a salvation...We will lose, that´s right, the minibus service to Ayamonte during August, but...who wants to go to a wilderness?...


...Look Mike. I am beginning to know how things work in Costa Esuri. I know you have a role here. That's fine, I totally respect that some people may have some personal, social, economic or political interests in keeping the EUC. I understand that. I just want to let you know that, at least for me, this is not a question of one side or the other, I do not play that game, I live very far away and I just do not care (although I find it interesting). Hopefully, I will go ahead with this action, and if we prevail the EUC will come to an end and things will be as they always shoud have (as they are in any other part of Ayamonte). ANd I will save more than 100€ every year for you and you will have to invite me to a couple of beers in the mini-market. Although we agree to disagree, I will be also representing indirectly your rights and your economic interests in the lawsuit, even a lawsuit in which you will not be part of. This is an action for the best interest of Costa Esuri. I am not your enemy. I am just a lawyer from Valladolid.

And reagarding the options to win the case, which you cast doubt on, as you already said, you smell rotten fish. Don't you think a judge in Huelva will smell the same? Are you sure, knowing how things work in Andalucia and in the Ayamonte Town Hall, that there is not any illegality in the EUC and the maintenance fee? Do you think I would have initiated all this if I did not know I have a very strong case? Do you think that I am such a bad lawyer that with all the wrongful things and illegalities the Town Hall has made in this proccess, I will not be able to prevail, at the very least, getting the worst of the winning scenarios? Do you know what will happen, even if there is an appeal, the next day after the judge in Huelva take its decision? I am just saying that I would rather bet on the winning horse So should you. And there is no other winning horse than joining the action. If we do not start the action or do not prevail, we all lose likewise (you too).

This is what is called a classic diversionary tactic. Take an argument I didn't make and then ridicule it.

• At no time have I suggested that that the Ayuntamiento will become insolvent - just the EUC. This apocalypse scenario is just a crude smear using ridicule. I expected this from some but not from Pablo, I did expect a reasoned argument - as I am sure a judge in Huelva would
• What will happen to the EUC debt? I became alarmed at the meeting in the Casa Grande that the legal team seemed to have no grasp of the numbers and held up a purely fictitious 5M euros when asked to estimate the amount of money that the EUC has collected. This number seemed to have been made up based on the EUC budget statement to cover the fact that basic research had not been done. Why won't the EUC be declared insolvent? Is there some nuance of Spanish law which prevents a bad debt being called in? (Unlike the rest of the world) - and if so how come MF went into administration in the first place? No, these are just fine words which will butter no parsnips for me.
• What evidence do you have that the IBI has been stolen? ( a very strong word for a lawyer to state on a public forum BTW)/ AFAIK the IBI is set according to the catastral valuation. We have had a lot of emotive words about CE paying much more than anywhere else in Ayamonte but no figures, sounds like a rabble-rousing slogan to me.
• You appear to be implying that I have some sort of improper affiliation with the EUC and have some private agenda of support. You could not be further from the truth. If the EUC quietly went away and left CE being properly maintained and a going concern then I would be the first to cheer. I really think that a class action is not in the best long term interest of CE (any more than the EUC is). My personal view is that the class action could potentially do a lot of damage. I suspect that it already has encouraged those people who are not already paying the EUC to feel justified and to continue not to pay. After all why would you pay when a newly qualified young lawyer from Valladolid trying to make a name for himself, says it's illegal (well you made it personal, I didn't). This increases the debt and those of us who are paying get even less for our hard earned whilst those who don't pay get a free ride at our expense - and will continue to do so. Do you think that is fair? I don't suppose you have even considered that.
• Look at the bigger picture.(I know that it is a staple of legal argument to tie one up in legal knots over the minutiae to cover a weak case - what I call fiddling while Rome is burning). There has been a worldwide recession triggered by the so-called credit crunch. This has hit Ayamonte and CE very hard. Many people and businesses in Ayamonte have gone to the wall. Even now as it struggles slowly out of this pit - putting a brave face on, announcing projects to try and attract some inwards investment and tourist euros - the Town Hall is unable to pay its workers and its police who nevertheless continue working. Then along comes a small group of rich outsiders (who were trying to make a fast buck but got burned like everyone else) and sue the Town Hall at disproportionate cost for 100 EUROS PER YEAR.
  WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE. Life's a beach, deal with it, don't try and make the little people pay for your lifestyle. It may be legal but it's just not fair!

When any matter proceeds to litigation both parties will be armed with legal advice and opinion. Because the parties have now arrived at court both believe the advice given is correct....and this advice must by the very fact the parties are in court be differrent.

In the end one of the lawyers will be proved wrong.

I have no knowlege of the law firm proposing this action or their track record. I have seen no CV's or references....usually before I appoint I require this information....will it be forthcoming?

So, we now have

"a newly qualified young lawyer from Valladolid trying to make a name for himself" (Pablo, as defined by MikeJ and taken verbatim from MikeJ post no. 80)

and somebody who "has worked on big business deals as a management consultant for a lot of his career and knows when he smells rotten fish!" (MikeJ as defined by himself in post no. 70)

As the plot begins to thicken and the characters develop a back story I can see this one ending up in Hollywood.

I know that I am going to get into trouble for this last bit and that the vast majority of the britishexpat world will disagree but wasn't there a time when people with strong professional qualifications garnered a little more respect than has been shown to young Pablo on this thread? He is in a different position to most casual posters on here - ie his professional reputation is at stake.

No comment, you don't even deserve it!

I totally agree with you, but to show respect to the others it first needs to know what it means.

I am not sure that professional qualification automtically equals respect.....I have no idea how strong the qualifications are or indeed how good a lawyer Pablo is.

I would certainly be interested to learn more about his credentials, track record and capability. I dont think that is unreasonable do you?

Please let's not become nasty to one another on this thread, especially as some of us do not know each other. Is there any other way/place to have this discussion?

MikeJ, thank you for your posts. In an attempt to lighten the tone, it has crossed my mind that the "wilderness" of CE post-EUC would be no less than "el campo". Quite lovely in fact, what with all the snowbirds, sevillanos, madrilenyos, etc. Yes, with some "Ozymandius" like relics of Fadesa.

The separate communities of CE are quite independent of each other: self funded, maintained, and administered. CERA has its work cut out to keep this "family" together. Yet CERA are in contact with the Ayuntamiento. Hurrah! As long as they represent the interests of the owners/residents of CE, which I am sure they strive to do so.

The way I understand things is that as long as we all pay IBI (apartment, townhouse, villa, and plot owners) then we should be receiving the services PROVIDED BY LAW by the local government. That includes the information cabin which is open on Tuesdays and Thursdays (mornings). This is an outreach service (provided in other parts of Ayamonte) which should be paid for by the IBI, not the EUC!

If CE owners are paying more IBI than others, then that is a separate topic for discussion, and individuals may choose to query this directly with Servicio de Gestion Tributaria.

Pablo, thank you for your posts. Has the Ayto. Ayamonte received the works of Martinsa Fadesa? If not, then why not?

Thanks also to all the others who have reported/ or shared their thoughts on this topic.

“El futuro tiene muchos nombres. Para los débiles es lo inalcanzable. Para los temerosos, lo desconocido. Para los valientes es la oportunidad.”

―Victor Hugo

Why not? Try reading my post (without the personal comment which I do regret (but he started it )). Try and give answers to some of my questions - none of which have been addressed. Is nobody allowed to state a contrary view?
I thought this thread would allow views from all sides - not just snide comments.

BTW I too have a string of professional qualifications (which I choose not to share) so does that win me 'respect' and make my comments any more valid?

Of course different views are great - that is the purpose of the discussion.

If you are not going to share your "string of professional qualifications" then no,.... obviously! Are any of them directly relevant to complex issues of Spanish law?

We are talking about a complex Spanish law issue - I'm just saying that a qualified Spanish abogado willing to discuss the matter in detail (who to my knowledge has so far given his advice, input and expertise for nothing) deserves not to be publicly belittled. It is of real benefit to get some free (so far) advice and info. Constructive discussion yes, public flaming no.

A Spanish lawyer with a direct link and interest in Esuri ~useful!

Can we also remember that he (again to my knowledge) is working here in a second language and not pick him up on words such as 'stolen' how would we do if this was in Spanish?

I'm not saying for one minute that everything Pablo says is correct and everything Mike says is wrong.

I think you have made your fair share of those to be able to take a few yourself!