Endesa
 

We live on the Costa del Sol and have received a letter from Endesa about fitting an ICP to the electric meter. Based on my potensia of 9,85KW they would want to fit a 15 KW ICP. This would mean that even with the minimum use (a kettle uses 15 KW) it is likely the electricity will trip. This is a real concern as we are away a lot and it could mean that pumps, freezers etc. will trip off whilst we are away. I have heard that the alternative is having a 30 euro surcharge added to our monthly bill, which is also unacceptable. My electrician has said to sit tight and do nothing for the moment. Hoping we can get some more advice about this.

Re: Endesa
 

hang on, you said a 15kw icp.. you could run the airport on that hahahahhaha

and a kettle ?? 15kw!?!?!?


i take it you mean a 15a icp? thats about 2kw. who told you that? on a 9,85kw supply (10kw mp) it should be a 40a icp, at least - which is enough to run everything on :)

example:

2.2KW = 10Amp;

3.3Kw = 15 Amp;

4.4Kw = 20Amp;

5.5Kw = 25 Amp;

so for 9,2kw you are looking at a 40a icp, at least.

Re: Endesa
 

Thanks bfg, 15a it is, you can tell this is not my area of expertise!

So are you saying that a 15a ICP is way too small? If so does anyone know how to make representations to Endesa?

Re: Endesa
 

It's my understanding that any GOOD electrician can fit an ICP and fill in the necessary paperwork.

Get quotes as it will cost no matter who does it for you.

Re: Endesa
 

Thank you but if the purpose of the ICP is to restrict electricity how can we prevent disasters like freezers cutting out whilst we are away? Or is the recommended ampage of 15 arbitrary? In other words can we fit an ICP with higher output?

Re: Endesa
 

I have to assume that either you have misread the letter or Endesa have made a mistake - they would never fit a 15amp ICP if you were contacted for 9.85kw.

If you are contracted for 9.85kw then Endesa would fit a 40 amp ICP as a matter of course. If they fitted anything less you would be unable to draw the power that you are contracted for and paying for.

There is a monthly standing charge of approx €2 for each KW of contracted potencia so you should already be paying about €20 a month. You should check your latest bill to see if this is the case.

It would be almost impossible for the ICP to trip in your absence as you could not be drawing that much power if you were not there. There is always a risk of the normal earth trip tripping while you are away anyway and that would spoil your freezer. There is not much you can do about that apart from fit a re-arming earth trip.

The reason Endesa are insisting on everyone having an ICP is that without it, there is nothing to stop you drawing more power than you are paying for (in the monthly charge).

Re: Endesa
 

We are just going thru this. It's going to cost us a grand to get the power line put to the outside, new boxes and a few other things and an upgrade to 5.something KW.

That's apparantly plenty for the average needs here, water pump, welder and so on, just mustn't run everything at the same time.

Re: Endesa
 

Thanks everyone I will go back and check exactly what the situation is.
Your help is much appreciated.

Re: Endesa
 

Ok, I now have the technical jargon from a friend in the same position he writes:

"Amps times Volts = Watts therefore 10,000 Watts (10Kw) is just under 45 Amps with a voltage 0f 230 Volts

I think there is some confusion between single phase and three phase. If you have a single phase supply and a ICP fitted of 45Amps then you can obviously draw up to 45Amps before there is a risk of tripping.

If you have a three phase supply then a 15Amp ICP is fitted giving you the same total power allowance of 45Amps as you get 15Amps per phase. The problem is that the whole unit trips if there is a demand for more than 15Amps on any phase. Your individual circuits with their own switches on the fuse board are connected to one phase or another so that if e.g. you have
12 circuits you will probably find that there will be four connected to each phase to balance the load. You could easily switch on, for example, a kettle and a washing machine both connected to the same phase and that could be over 20Amps and trip the ICP."

Given the above does anyone any more thoughts on this?

Re: Endesa
 

The best thing to do is; firstly consult the bill for consumption - are you contracting the correct amount? From this you can determine the correct ICP (per phase etc.)

The second thing I would do is to get an electrician to check loading on each phase. If you find that the system is NOT balanced. For example they have put the kettle, washing machine and hob all on one phase (they shouldn't have done but hey, this is Spain), then you may need to rewire bits or to increase the ICP.

Re: Endesa
 

Only :blink: :blink: :blink: :eek: :eek: :eek: me, I'd just pay a sparky :)

Re: Endesa
 

OK - you didn't say you had a 3 phase supply.

What you say is 100% correct - we are in the same position.

We did not have an ICP because we have the off peak tariff and for some reason Endesa did not require an ICP when the house was built 7 years ago.

Our initial contract was for only 4.93kw even thought they knew that we had a 15kw installation upgradeable to 25kw.

When the guy arrived to fit the new ICP it was a 3x7.5kw trip because that was what we were contracted for. I told him to take it back. After much hassle with Endesa we had to upgrade our contract twice at a cost of €450 and ended up with a 14kw trip (3x20amp) which tripped as soon as we put the cooker on. At least, over the seven years that we had been paying the lower monthly charge, we had saved a lot more than that!

I got the three phases redistributed - the cooker is now on one phase on it's own - and it all works OK as long as we are careful with what we put on at the same time. To be totally OK we would need to upgrade to nearer 20kw.

Under these circumstances a three phase supply is a real pain - we would have much more flexibility with a 9.8kw single phase supply and it would be cheaper.

Re: Endesa
 

Not sure how you check whether we are contracted for the correct amount, but you are right I will get my electrician in to check the loads and re-wire if necessary. Thanks for the help.

Re: Endesa
 

On your bill it gives the "Potencia Contratado" under "Datos del Cliente" in the top right hand box.

When you look at the actual section that says "Facturacion" it will show the "potencia" charge on the first line. It will show the potencia figure again.

What you will have to be careful about is that if you have to increase your contracted potencia to over 10kw (to get a sensible ICP) you will move out of the government controlled TUR tariff and the costs could go up significantly - like 50%.

I changed over to Iberdrola as they were much cheaper than Endesa for the off peak supply.

Re: Endesa
 

Thanks Fred that is very interesting, I will check out the other supplier.

Re: Endesa
 

ahhh .. now it makes sense.

3x 15a icp giving a total of 45a as long as loading is equal.

thats fine, the kitchen wiring needs to be re-distributed among the 3 phases.

cooker on one, surface sockets on another (microwave, kettle etc), and electric water heater on another, air con on the phase with the lowest usage.

as you say, with a kettle and a cooker being 2kw each, the icp makes it impossible to run the two at once, if they were on the same phase. annoying, but those are the new rules which will eventually be for everyone.

fred, interesting point, have you heard about the new digital meters? they are supposed to have an in built icp .. ;) so if you are fitting one, but upgrading your supply, hence a new contract, you can ask for a new meter.. and not fit an icp...im not sure how to reset it tho, if it trips, is it sealed inside the meter, or is there a button on the outside ?

Re: Endesa
 

I have heard about the plans for everyone to eventually have a new type of meter but have not seen any details of them.

As you say, if they have a built in ICP then it would have to be self resetting.

It will probably takes years to change them all over, especially as I understand that the power companies will have to foot the bill.

Re: Endesa
 

We have a new digital meter for one of our flats, but we still had to fit an ICP (Iberdrola).

We were told that with the new (digital) meters, they can be read from the street without need to access the meter cupboard - we asked the meter man and he just laughed! Years away yet, he said.

Re: Endesa
 

I thought that they could be read centrally by sending the meter readings back down the power lines - a bit like one of these home networks where you use the house power wiring.

I imagine the meters are capable of doing it but I doubt that they have the equipment and infrastructure set up to do anything with the data.

Re: Endesa
 

If only..our electricity was cut off when we were back in the uk and the bills still being paid by our spanish bank. when we returned we couldn't find out from anyone in endesa as to why it was cut off(the monthly bill had just been paid out too). BUT to get reconnected,we had to have a new meter,and also get a boletin. we had been living in that house for three years too,and had only gone back to the uk for a year.
so the new meter cost us near 800 euros and the boletin,which endesa told me was going to be free, another 70 euros. See lots of these meters sprouting in our village now,you can tell by the new larger box outside the houses. to date I know of three houses which have been charged for the change-over,ranging from 300 to 600 euros. One canny fella did it himself and got his cousin to authorise it.

Re: Endesa
 

Ah but they are not charging you for the meter - they are charging you to bring the supply up to date and get a new Boletin - you don't pay Endesa for that you pay an electrician.

You also have to have a larger meter box with metal doors, again, you have to get a builder to do that and buy the box.

Then you get your FREE meter!

Bunning Carstards!

Re: Endesa
 

yeah,that was what happened to us...but I got one over on endesa. We were without electricity for about two months while I kept going back and forth,getting nowhere fast...so I lied to the young girl in their office,I told her we had a young child in the house who was suffering(we are pensioners)and she arranged for the supply to be reconnected. So we had electricity for about two months,then they came to put the new box in and check the house out for the boletin.They took the old box away,put the new box in,and started to bill me from the installation. We never got billed for the two months with the old box,and I never told them.
And before I finish,the same thing happened with the water,it had been disconnected as well,even though the bills were still being paid. the meter was taken away,and the pipe capped. No-one at galasa could tell me why or when the supply was stopped. We had to get a new meter,the roadway outside dug up and new sewage pipes put it,and pay about 800 euros for the privelage. I also had to tell the young lady in their office that we had a young child in the house who was suffering because we have had no water for about two months(in the heat of summer too). so she got our water put back on until the new meter men came etc.....it really is a big con and seems to be happening all over. I have been told by friends that both galasa and endesa have been trying to get them to instal new electric boxes and new water meters with all the cost it involves. they declined but they will have to do it in the end I think....We are the only house on our calle with the new meters,,,,,we are also the only english house on the calle....go figure.

Re: Endesa
 

I had to have the new type box fitted 2 years ago when we changed the supply into our name also had the the ICP fitted. Electrician changed the meter cupboard etc new one with bigger steel door and supplied the boletin, endesa came and fitted the ICp and something else in the meter box. Didn't get a new meter though same meter just new box. Cost me about 700 euro total. Strange seems to be that all the Spanish houses stil have the old type glass fronted meter boxes, however I suppose they don't change supply names which seeems to trigger the need for the new type. Of course the new builds have the new type.

Re: Endesa
 

it's nothing to do with changing names I am afraid. Our name was on our supply from day one,the same goes for friends of ours who had endesa coming to their door every week trying to get them to buy a new box...none of their(spanish)neighbours were asked.
also,the blasted gas men have been coming to our house quite regularily over the last two years now. never been allowed to gain entry. I allow the wife to answer the door ,"I'm a poor woman on my own and can't allow you in",that sort of thing. or I let my dog answer the door. same difference,man goes away. they will get me in the end,but I am putting up a fight.:sneaky:

Re: Endesa
 

I doubt that it was Endesa - they would never get of their comfy backsides in the office and anyway, they cannot sell you a box.

It was almost certainly the electrical contractors who do the work for Endesa and they are private companies.

The reason they did not approach the Spanish is that they would know it was a con - just like the gas men who charge you a fortune to check your gas appliances.

Re: Endesa
 

I wasn't approached at the door it was part of buying the house to change the electric account into my name reuired a new boletin which required a new box being fitted and the ICP. I was informed of this by the solicitor then arranged for work to be done.

Re: Endesa
 

Its the steel door that seems to be driving this I suppose to stop theft. Its odd though about 5000 new properties on Costa Esuri all finished within the last two or three years and you can count on the fingers of one hand the number of steel doors. Fortunately mine is one.

It has a downside though I wanted to buy one of the Endessa plastic box doors for a little project I have and could not get one anywhere. Odd but over in Portugal they still do the plastic boxes for all utilities boxes and doors but they are all slightly different doors sizes, the one that matches is water and that has 2 little clear flaps so no good.

Re: Endesa
 

I wasn't replying to your post, I was replying to Michaleen.

Re: Endesa
 

quite true there fred. these people have all sorts of official-looking identity cards etc. the main criteria for the gas people is NOT to let them in. use any excuse at hand...we have used "little old woman on her own","sorry,my huge wolf isn't partial to strangers",and the best one.."we don't own this house,we are on vacation". if you let the gas man in,you are legally bound to pay anything they bill you for.
I wouldn't be so upset with galasa and endesa if I knew they were targetting everyone,not just the english. then I wouldn't feel paranoid. but we are the only ones having our doors knocked on. my spanish neighbours tell me to tell them to ---- off but I am not like that. But getting that way.:frown:

Re: Endesa
 

Pick a language they are unlikely to know, and simply repeat a suitable phrase ad nauseam till they **** off.

If it's any help, try this.

'Sumimasen, shitsurei shimasu. Showinno no innu wa ikura desu ka?'

Roughly, 'I am so sorry. How much is that doggie in the window??

I use it on beggars, and it is a joy to watch the confusion on their faces.

Re: Endesa
 

"I'm a little old lady", we don't live here,just on holiday" and the ultimatum "my white wolf is uncontrollable,please come in". seems to work so far. seriously though, they will get us one of these days but I am putting up a valiant real-guard action. I would pay these monies,with a bit of bad grace admittedly,if I didn't have the thought in the back of my mind that they are taking the ----. And as I have served in submarines,I don't take to that lightly.:mad:

Re: Endesa
 

a new contract requires a new bollatin.

a new name requires a new contract.

an upgrade requires a new contract.

to get a new contract the house has to be "up to spec", including moving the metre box to the outside. whatever the cost.

seriously. its not rocket science.

Re: Endesa
 

I don't think it's quite that simple.

My boletin is 7 years old. I upgraded the contract twice with no new boletin required.

I had to take out a new contract with Endesa as all contracts over 10kw have to move to the Free Market - no new boletin was required.

I subsequently took out a new contract moving from Endesa to Iberdrola and no boletin was required.

I have an outside box but it is not the latest type but I have not had to change it.

Re: Endesa
 

Fred, I just think you've been lucky. 'round here they require a new boletin to get a new contract. Changing names etc. on an existing contract does not.

And, to make it worse, if the previous boletin was in the previous owners name, then it is useless and you have to start again! I'm also told that boletins have a shelf-life - not sure how long but I bet it's not very long.

Re: Endesa
 

I doubt that I was lucky - the scrawny old bag in the office was being as difficult as possible - and with Endesa it doesn't get much worse than that!.

I think the reason may have been that my original boletin was for 15kw upgradeable to 25kw even though the original contract, for some reason best known to Endesa, was contracted at 4.93kw.

It may be that in the cases that have required new boletins for an upgrade or new contract was because the original boletin was for a lower figure than the new potencia required.

My point was really that, as I said, it's not that simple as there may be other factors to take into account.

Re: Endesa
 

I know what you mean about "scrawny old bags" - we don't even get that now. They've closed ALL customer facing offices in this area and it must all be done in writing or by fax:(

It may be that when potencia changes then you need a new bolletin but in my case(s) it was simply a new contract with exactly the same potencia.

In fact, just thinking about it, when I upgraded our casita to a higher potencia (new ICP etc.) we weren't asked for a bolletin.

Re: Endesa
 

It sounds like it should be simple, but sometimes isn´t. I´m trying to change the name on the contract (it´s still in the old owners name) and have an ICP fitted. According to the electrician, name change means a new contract which means a bolletin which in turn means obtaining a Licence of Second Occupation etc ... :confused:

Since I also live in Valencia any pointers on how you got an upgrade so easily would be much appreciated.

Re: Endesa
 

exactly what i´d of told you, it seems it varies from town to town :(

Re: Endesa
 

According to Endesa website any changes need a new boletin if over 4 years old from the last one!

Re: Endesa
 

that is how i understood it