Demolition is proving difficult
 

This article in El Pais makes scary reading.
"Up against a brick wall
During Spain's decade-long property boom, thousands of buildings were illegally constructed in protected areas
Getting them demolished is proving a challenge"

Wouldn't they fight to protect the home they bought in good faith and paid taxes on at the time and continue to pay taxes on to the local council?

Yvonne

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Idiots.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

I suspect the lack of interest in your thread is that most of the members hate to admit there is anything wrong with Spain, that there is corruption on a unprecedented scale, that all the Brits caught up in these massive scandals left their brains on the aircraft and it's purely down to them for the sad state they find themselves in.
Forget the hundreds of thousands of illegal builds in Spain, if you could find a case of an illegal house in UK and posted that, you'd be swamped with replies!;) I posted an almost identical article recently, I wish you luck, you have my sympathy, I can imagine what you must be going through. http://sociedad.elpais.com/sociedad/...30_335439.html

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

I have to question what exactly, is (or was) "illegal? Was it simply that nobody registered the build or attempted to, and blatantly built without any attempt to do it legally?

Or was it that the regulations were designed in such a way that made it nearly impossible to build "legally" without paying someone off.

Or were some of the properties actually "legal" at one time, but then later some Einstein decided they weren't anymore, simply because he or she didn't get their cut.

If you compare the number of supposedly "illegal" properties in Spain with the number in other countries, you have to wonder what is actually the reason for it.

Blaming it all on a few foreigners is very short-sighted. Why don't foreigners engage in this equally elsewhere then?

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Or were some of the properties actually "legal" at one time, but then later some Einstein decided they weren't anymore, simply because he or she didn't get their cut.

That seems to be the problem, certainly in Axarquia. Retrospective planning laws from the Junta to curb the excesses of small tinpot Mayors. There seems to be a consensus amongst the Spanish that it is the foreigners fault...along with a lot of Brit appeasers too:confused: The I'm alright Jacks are alive and well!

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Well not exactly

The situation is that there were many corrupt town mayors who gave permission for vast developments on their village/town land, knowing that they were actually illegal according to national and regional town planning laws

But they gave the go ahead anyway because they personally got a slice of the action, and the property taxes boosted the coffers of the ayuntamiento

They concluded that by the time national or regional law caught up with them, then they would already be out of office and have several million in a Swiss bank account

It doesnt help that everytime PP are in power nationally they say that they will not apply national planning laws, but every time PSOE are in, they say they will demolish illegal buildings. So it is a political game.

Individually as a house buyer, it is your respoinsibility to know the law or hire a lawyer who can explain it to you. Then you decide whether to take the risk or not. Unfortunately as an outsider, it is difficult to know which lawyer to trust, or what the risks actually are

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

I haven´t replied as I know YMF. There are so many illegal houses in Chiclana that it´s difficult to know what is and what isn´t.

Also, I don´t know one person, who has bought here in the last 10 years, that hasn´t been badly advised.

We now have a new, NEW town plan, if we can get to see it, which means the goalposts have been moved yet again.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Agree, but you'll still get the "plastic Spanish" here insisting that it's all your fault! :rofl: You have only yourselves to blame. :rofl: Stupid, I know, but that's what they'll be telling you. Nobody buying in a foreign country can be expected to know property law inside out, so you employ a man that does, a local lawyer. That ensures everything is 100% safe, doesn't it? Well in a lot of countries it might do, in Spain it means anything but that. True, you might be lucky and get a legal house, but all too often that's not the case.

Looking on the bright side, whilst some have seen some horrendous drops in the value of their property, you might be able to pick up a real bargain, just make sure it's legal. A local lawyer maybe? :rofl:

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

I have always been given plenty of reason to believe that the system makes it necessary to engage in "dodgy" things to succeed at anything.

Those who naively play it perfectly straight have traditionally been the losers in far too many cases. But I admit that's changing for the better.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

As we all know none of the EXpat estate agents, british sales companies like Atlas , MRI, Paradour etc had nothing to do with the problems.
They were as innocent as the poor buyers they helped to dupe.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Typical.:thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown:

ALL PRACTISING LAWYERS SHOULD BE TRUSTWORTHY OR STRUCK OFF.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Of course they should.

I do not have enough information to know if they are or not. From my experience with Brits on the Costas, so much gets lost in translation that it is impossible to know what they actually have and have not been told.

For me, I would want to know the law backwards before committing to an expensive purchase in a country I do not know. There are things you can do to spot a good lawyer, but I can see that for someone with no local contacts and no cultural references how difficult this could be.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

It shouldn't have to be like that. All Lawyers should be impeccable. Other countries mange to get it right. Why pay a dog and have to bark yourself.:blink:

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Well obviously they are not struck off, because all those that did the paperwork on illegal houses, did not due their duty with enough care and attention or got a nice little sum on the side, either way despicable..

You make it sound as though only Brits who don´t speak the language get ripped off, although they are in great numbers of those who have had the misfortune to find themselves in this position.

As for knowing the "law backwards" as a lay person, who does that, not even the Spanish property buyers. THAT IS WHY THEY HIRE A LAWYER IN THE FIRST PLACE.

It is the lawyer who should know the law.

Why should a client have to know the "ins and outs" of anything when they are paying a professional?

Because according to you, you would not be satisfied with seeing the lawyers premises and the certificates on the wall.

When you go to the dentist for a filling, Do you check that the instruments are fully sterile, do you check the mix of the filling to be put in your tooth, do you check that the dentist has drilled deep enough, or that he is using the right drill?


I don´t know anyone who does that, of course, being you, you will tell me different.

So if a dentist can be trusted to fix your teeth without you knowing the procedure "backwards", why shouldn´t we be able to trust a lawyer to do it right when dealing with a house purchase?

Oh don´t answer that, as we all know you have a sister in law, who is a tax lawyer, so possibly you know about a lot of "shenanegins" that we don´t know about.

One of the major problems in Spain is that people (think CMAN as a prime example) put the blame on the "victim" instead of the professional who has duped them.:thumbdown:

In that respect you have a more Spanish attitude than either JLFS or myself.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

And what about all the local Chiclaneros or Las Isletas, from San Fernando, who do have local contacts and have been duped? It´s not all ex-pats that have bought these illegal houses.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Cman blames the Brits and lack of language, culture etc. for everything, such a turncoat there has never been, although there are a few that come very very close to him on this forum with their contempt for all things British especially the people.:thumbdown:

He makes me sick.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

I am not blaming the victim, I am explaining the circumstances

I have some friends who bought a place on the CDS some years ago. The lawyer told them that they could not build an extension legally but if they were not found out for 10 years then they would "probably be OK"

The friends built the extension and took the risk

The crucial thing is whether the lawyers always say in definite terms whether the properties were 100% legal or whether they made the buyers aware that the building is against national or regional planning laws so came with some risk.

If they did not highlight the risk then I personally would take them to court for failing in their job to provide sound legal advice

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Naive newbie foreigners with money have always been targets for fraud in Spain. That's a matter of record, not an opinion.

But I reckon if you subscribe to the notion that naive newbie foreigners have no business coming to Spain in the first place, one could rationalise that it's their own fault, a view which suspiciously always seems to be the prevailing wisdom in cases where naive newbie foreigners get ripped off in Spain. "your own fault". "stupid foreigner". or even the denial view, "doesn't happen here".

The irony in those views of course, is that anyone who suggests the con artist mentality in Spain is responsible are too easily labeled "racist", which helps explain why they use the R word so liberally to win any argument.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Nobody is saying that. Brits should come to Spain with their eyes open and with enough nouse so that they do not put their entire financial future in the hands of someone they do not know and can barely communicate with

I got ripped off by an estate agent in London and I speak English well. I can only imagine what would happen if a foreigner with no English had to deal with the situation I was in. Oh and my solicitor was in on the trick with the estate agent.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Our contacts when property hunting ( although we eventually chose Portugal ) were not Spanish. Most happened to be English who were taking advantage of the " rush to buy " to sell property in Spain and Portugal.
They and all the others Germans, Dutch etc would have known how lax the systems were. How illegal or otherwise the developments they were selling were.
How trustworthy or otherwise the solicitors they recommended were.

it is therefore borderline rascist to say that only the Spanish were responsible.
The directors of companies like MRI and many other companies and the majority of their salesforce were not Spanish.
It is true to say that system and culture in Spain allowed many to jump on an easymoney band wagon.
A crook is a crook whatever their nationality.
Far too many fell for the sales patter just becaise they were dealing with someone from their own country.
We trust our own whatever nationality we are more than a local and many thousands are now paying the price for that misguided trust.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

So, it is naive newbie foreigners that are at fault? Apparently you seem to say that dubious estate agents can always claim the victim is just a stupid Anglo who's come down here expecting people to conduct an honest business, and the law to protect them like it does in their own country, but because they didn't do their research on the dubious nature of Spanish real estate, they deserve to be ripped off.

Got any more naive newbie Anglos for us? We love 'em here.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Yeah, and it's racist to suggest that Spanish construction standards are sub-par, it's racist to suggest there is a large black economy in Spain, it's racist to suggest that fraud and corruption is common in Spain, and racist even to say you don't fancy Tapas.

Most importantly, it's racist to disagree with you or CMan.

But it's not racist for dubious estate agents to lay traps for naive newbie anglos coming with their life savings to secure their place in the sun.

Well, I have a little news for you: This is racism and it has nothing to do with any of the above. But apparently you both seem to feel it's a good last resort.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

You miss the point.
It is rascist to say that the property scandal particularly on the coasts is exclusively a Spanish problem it was not.There are some very wealthy Brits and others who mad their fortunes in these times selling to the " stupid " call them what you will.
I repeat our experience and that of many thousands of others was with non Spanish individuals.
However bad things may be in Portugal we are thankfull that we were not conned by Brits and Brit companies into buying in Spain.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

After the thousands and thousands of stories about buyers being ripped of by estate agents and solicitors in Spain, I knew there would be a post about being ripped of by a solicitor and an estate agent in the UK.

It was just a question of who got there first.

I see the odds on favourite won.;)

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

It is a very British trait to attribute blame all the time. It is the behaviour of a 5 year old who goes crying to their mummy

I am not blaming anybody, just explaining the situation. You have to be careful when buying in Spain because of the complexity of the law, the lack of compliance to the law and the number of so-called professionals who do not work to the letter of the law. A buyer needs to be aware of this

You can either "blame" the Spanish system or the buyer when things go wrong. It doesnt actually matter one jot who you blame. The situation is what it is - complex and in need of navigating.

One thing British people need to be aware of is that Spain is not Britain and never will be

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

So did you take them to court?

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Even if you weren't a betting person, I bet you'd have put money on the saddo popping up!:rofl: Of course, you've only got his word for it, but you know he wouldn't just make it up. Or would he? :rofl: Funny, I've never read of legions of Spanish in UK complaining of being ripped off and ending up with an illegal house, but I bet the saddo knows loads. ;) The half a dozen or so I know personally are happy as Larry.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Would've been my question too. Especially since it's something you can reasonably expect to do in the UK.

Here it would be a lot more dangerous, especially for those naive newbie anglos who have no clue how slanted the courts can be here. But then again, it's their own fault, innit?

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

No because I caught them at it, and it only cost me a grand (could have been more).

The point being is as that there are number of ways to be conned. British mortgage providers have been excellent at conning and ripping off the public for example, but imagine being in that environment but not even having the langauge skills to read up about the subject and ask the right questions

Even asking friends and neighbours about the buying process is important, but something someone new to a country who doesnt speak the language cannot do

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Take it you haven't been following the unfair clauses on mortgages in Spain news then:blink:

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Well, It's settled then:

All you need to do is Speak Spanish fluently, and you'll never be defrauded in Spain.

Still, that does beg the question of how the Spanish public is constantly defrauded out of billions by corrupt Spanish-speaking politicians. Maybe we should check to see if they have any Anglo blood in their family tree. That would explain it.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Yes I have, my sister-in law is getting a lump sum back due to it

This was because the European courts declared that having a ceiling for mortgages where interest rates were advertised as following the ECB rate but that wouldnt go below the ceiling that was hidden in the ts & cs was illegal

Funnily enough British mortgage lenders have been doing this for decades. Is there a furore about it in the UK? Halifax did this to me with my mortgage and conned me out of hundreds of pounds each month.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

So you would sue a Spanish lawyer for simply failing to give sound legal advice.

But yet, you got ripped off for "only a grand" in the UK, bt did nothing about it.:confused::confused:

Are you surprised that people take your posts with a pinch of salt?:rofl::rofl:

You are becoming quite a laughing stock.:o:o:o

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

That explains it then.

We have zero chance of being ripped off then (us and our children) as between us we don´t have a single drop of Anglo blood in us.

Although I did have a near miss after the birth of my daughter, thank heavens I did not need a blood transfusion after all as I presume it would have been Anglo blood.

PHEW.

I would then have been exposed to risk of being ripped off in Spain.

Double PHEW;)

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

I am not a betting person, JL is the one who is in the gambling business, but there is an old proverb about betting.

The race is not always to the swift, and the fight not always to the strong, but that is the way to bet.

Of course there were other contenders, but in the end my instincts were right.

Now about the primitiva...................:D

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Hardly "becoming". A long-standing entertainment institution here. Always been #1 at everything.

But judging from recent entries, I'd argue there's increasing competition.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Yes of course I would sue a lawyer if they were meant to protect my legal interests but did not

And you think I am going to through the hassle of a court case for £1,000. Are you kidding? I was just pleased when the process was over and done with.

The problem on this forum is that certain posters like to put words in my mouth for things I have never said. I dont know whether you do it to provoke or that you are only able to see topics in black and white. There is no interest in actually discussing the matter at hand

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

We are thinking of buying a house in Spain. We met a couple who have a house in Chiclana. The house is not legal yet and they do not have electricity. They told us they had been told that the legalisation would cost 35,000 Euros. They do not have the money so want to sell. They told us that the legalisation could be done at the time of selling. We are thinking of going to Chiclana and view the house.
does this seem OK or fishy?

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

as someone else said - most of Chiclana is illegal.
I wouldn't touch it, because if it looks like a fish, tastes like a fish then it is a fish.
I walked from a very nice property in Almeria because it was illegal, the owners put it back on the market with no price reduction. But it did have water and electric.

there are plenty of other properties that are legal, they cost more but then most illegal properties cannot be made legal even for 100,000 euros.
the first indication is no water, no electricity (although in the middle of nowhere that is more likely)
look the up the property on the Catastral that will tell you some of the story.

And look at the problems Antonio Banderas has had with his property - even Spanish get duped or take a risk

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

The cost of legalisation is not know at the moment, it will depend on all sorts of things and is very unlikely to happen any time soon. It cannot be done at the time of sale and in some cases will never be possible. I would be very careful and consult a good lawyer and also speak to the council planning department about the status of the property.

The new Chiclana town plan is about to be released and that will give an idea if the house can be legalised in the future or not. You also need to be wary of houses in this area that are now in designated flood plains.