Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

:D

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

[QUOTE=Mitzyboy;10934233]Benissa Town and Benissa Coast are two completely different places, we've been visiting the area since the early 80's, I noticed an add a couple of years ago for a property for sale in Cap Blanc for a connected town house on a gated development of circa 17 properties. The sea view has been somewhat spoilt by a £7million villa built just in front of it, but I wouldn't lose much sleep about that, however I can't recall the name of the complex, the houses sell for circa €250,000, any ideas guys?

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

[QUOTE=crookesey;10934378]Yes, I know ... I've been all around there with my trusty camera :);)

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Is it just me but I find it outrageous that it would deemed to be ok. for owners to be allowed to live in the houses for their lifetime and then be taken over by the state.:blink: If the houses were built in protected areas how can they be allowed to stand. They should be demolished and compensation paid seeing as the legal process was at fault. Let them recoup the losses from the crooked Mayors, Developers that worked hand in glove.

What will happen is these owners will die, the properties will be sold for a song (being illegal) and suddenly, when bought by the Spanish will suddenly become legalised. They want to sell houses to the Brits but they don't want us to live in them:lol:

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Isn't that a bit racist Jacky ??

and, although it may surprise you, it isn't just Brits that have been conned.
:(

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I think anyone who either says it is your own fault or that the houses should be taken over by the state are either heartless or arrogant or both.

I suppose those knowalls have never trusted a professional, (after all how could they for blaming you for not knowing the law inside out) so presumably they do not heed the advice of a doctor unless they know medicine inside out.

TBH they make me sick.

I feel so bad for you Caroline, I think you and thousands like you have been give a very raw deal, you have my sympathy without suggesting that you were in someway stupid or at fault.

I hope you get it all resolved, you and all in the same boat through no fault of your own.

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Hi, I'm just a 66 year old who hasn't forgotten the 1960's, I can't stand bloody dick heads, the wife and I have grafted in our time, everything we have we own. We are just about to give our son a flat, he's so much unlike me, I'd find a business opportunity if I found myself on the planet Zog, so sorting him out makes us feel good.

So which do I fit into? God only knows, because I don't.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

In todays news. The Prosecution are asking for 226 years for the Mayor of Alcaucin (Axarquia) for corruption etc. He will probably get about 6 months:lol:

Also implicated are another 49 people including funcionarios in charge of planning, land division etc. For a small place it sounds as if they were all at it. The British didn't stand a chance...and they were mainly British buyers in that area!

http://www.diariosur.es/v/20131010/m...-20131010.html

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Yes, I agree - but no matter how long he gets, it won't do anything to help the people stuck with illegal and unsaleable properties, which is the worst thing about it.

Personally, I agree with your earlier suggestion that those properties built on protected land should be demolished and full compensation paid to the buyers (provided they can prove they bought in good faith and a building licence for an actual dwelling and not some kind of agricultural building had been issued), with the assets of anybody convicted of involvement in these scams being confiscated to help pay for it.

However, there are so many properties built on land that wouldn't be classified as protected, just rustico, that demolition wouldn't really be a realistic option as the money just wouldn't be available to compensate the buena fe buyers. In those cases (unfortunately for the environment) I think the Junta should just legalise them, but draw a very clear line in the sand and put in place much stricter controls to ensure that more uncontrolled building doesn't result. They really should have been carrying out regular inspections in areas like the Axarquia and the Costa de la Luz to make sure that any construction that was going on was fully legal - what's the point of allowing building to progress to completion and even be sold and then turning round and saying they are illegal, retrospectively (the buildings weren't exactly invisible whilst they were being constructed, were they?).

I do have to say, though, that I draw a distinction between those people who bought in good faith and were assured that they had all the required bases covered, and those who bought something they knew to be not quite right (eg a building that only had a licence for a stable or similar but a house complete with garage and swimming pool was actually built) and thought they'd be OK if they could get away with it for more than 4 years. In that second group they could demolish every one of them without compensation, as far as I'm concerned.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

The people who bought houses that were actually on Asperos were guilty. However, only guilty of being naïve. They were told by Estate Agents (many of them British) that was the Spanish way of doing things. It was too, worked ok. when they odd one did it but then the floodgates opened.

Re. compensation. I did notice in the article that the Prosecution are asking for compensation for the buyers of illegal houses which is a step forward. Not much to go around though with that sum:(

730.000 euros que deberán pagar los principales acusados para indemnizar a las compradores de viviendas irregulares.
.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

I believe the environmental people came up with a phrase of something like
"Andalucia has more naves with swimming pools than probably any other part of Spain"

used to have the actual reference but ditched it when I pulled out of the Almeria house - will look for it at the weekend
That really sums up the problem though. And how many people realise that the spring they drink their lovely water from has the sewage from all the other illegal houses further up the hill leeching into it. :eek:

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

North to Alaska was the song the gold diggers sang over a hundred years ago, South to Marbella would have been a similar song for the expats who flooded into the CDS in the early nineties. Both sets of foreigners arrived with the express intention to exploit the land. Ghost towns is what they left behind, when the gold ran out.

The Malaya corruption trial finished last week, after two years, in Marbella and 96 of the very top of Marbella society were convicted of the most unbelievable corruption. It barely registered in the press, with corruption now exposed at the highest government level.

So who was involved in the scandal? How cynical would it be to say Everyone? Including the expat gold diggers?

What about the expats turning Spanish cow sheds into illegal mansions with sparkling swimming pools where once stood shrubland with a few gnarled olive trees?

Several hundred Spanish mayors and other officials have gone to prison, but have the illegal activities stopped?

Of course they haven't, just reading a few of the posts on this little thread prove otherwise, Mitzyboy has given a perfect example of what is still happening, and the evidence is all around.

And throwing stones in glass houses is not a good idea.

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Was wondering where you had got to HBG:D

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Neither Alaska nor Marbella, but away from the net for a bit.

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You were missed:D

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HBG post hit the nail on the head. the property scandal could not have happened without the connivance of indviduals from the mayors office to the local expat estate agent.
It was easy money for all.
How many estate agents have been taken to court ???

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

funny I have been asking the same question for a number of weeks (and not just on this thread) but very few wanted to enter that zone
:(

`

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All the funny business should have been sorted out by the lawyers, they are responsile for "legal" stuff, that is why they study the law.

Even if and estate agent is dodgy, the lawyer should pick up on any paper work that is not kosher. that is what his clients pay for, ie legal protection and service.

How may of those leeches have had their collar felt, that is more to the point.

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You miss the point , they were all in it from the opportunists from essex who overnight became " estate agents ", the sales companies who operated across Europe,the developers, the builders, the lawyers, the planners. local politians etc.
All made varying amounts of money and all share in the blame.
I had a customer who bought in Marbella probably 12 years ago even then many of the problems were known but the party continued for a few years more.
Does anyone know of an estate agent of any nationality who said to a prospective client in these good times, do not buy there, it could be illegal etc etc.
I know someone who used to work for MRI and at their sales meeting ( end of week p up ) some used to gloat about how they had this poor punter to buy in this development or that one.
All they were interested in was their sales commission which for some ran into 6 figures.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

None in our area, as far as I am aware. I´ve also heard, don´t know if it´s true or not, but it´s nie on impossible to sue a lawyer in Spain. If this is the case, what did/do they have to lose?

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Blame lies with the lawyers, if they are acting for a client then it is their duty to see all is legal and bove board.

They are the experts on law, and they should be sued, but I fear there is no justice.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Can I just say that I have two Spanish lawyers in my family, and they are not all bent, in fact most are not!

A good lawyer never has to look for work, maybe the bent ones gravitated towards expats for a reason?

And normally, if you have a problem with a lawyer, you take it up with their professional body and they can get thrown off the books, it shouldnt cost anything. Of course, if they had broken laws as well, then they should be denounced through the police

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So the agents etc who knowingly sold dodgy developments that would never be finished honestly earned their commissions and had no involement in the scandal.
The sky just darkened as a flock of flying pigs went buy.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Can I ask how you actually can know that for sure?

Do bent lawyers have a tattoo on their forehead or something like that.

One can never be sure, because all the local mayors, lawyers, politicians, officials etc that have been caught with their hands in the cookie jar, all seemed as "unbent" as can be.

I suppose a bent lawyer etc, would keep it to him/herself, for obvious reasons.

And do you really expect us to believe that even in the best of families, whose reputation is impeccable, there are no "bent" ones.

Inaki Urdgagarin and Infanta Cristina are a good example, on the outside, respectable parents of 4 kiddies, well respected sportsman, and Dukes of the realm, but underneath, tax fiddlers, money launderers and downright thieves.

So if it can happen in the ROYAL family, the Kings daughter no less, I am sure it can happen in any family, even yours, and don´t forget all lawyers are straight until they get CAUGHT.

It is only then, they become a bent lawyer.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

You were talking about all lawyers being bent, meaning that it must be institutionalised. It may be so in pockets of the South where there has been overdevelopment, but its probably limited to that and the odd exception

You cant blame all lawyers any more than you can blame all rich people for the economic crisis

Personally I blame those who encourage the poorest and most vulnerable people in society to gamble all their money away so that they can stay at home and take the moral high ground on internet forums :p

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Exactly. Whilst not being over-fond of Agents, when the bulk of illegal properties were being sold no-one knew they were illegal. If you have followed the case of the Mayor in Alcaucin this week everyone with any power was involved, even the Funcionario who changed the catastrals:blink: Although one local Correador has been charged. It was like the wild west!

http://www.diariosur.es/v/20131010/m...-20131010.html

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OOHH that hurt (not).:rofl::rofl:

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As a now retired lawyer I am keeping well away from this question of bent lawyers. They do exist so do bent pins! It is not an exclusive club Me Me and whilst I have seen some of your emails on other subjects and with which I agree I do not agree as to lawyers.

However what I say is that the UK is better positioned than Spain to deal with them and deal with them they do. Barristers not so much for they investigate themselves.

Spain is unique and the boom brought problems Me Me the problem occurs earlier when anyone's Mens Rea tells them to do something that is illegal. Not when they are caught. There is no going back

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

E mails?

I do not mean to say that all lawyers are bent at all, in the Uk and in Spain we have had god dealings with lawyers, but when things go wrong with paperwork that is the lawyers responsibility, and public liability insurance should come into play so the client does not lose out, which is what happens in Spain.

I did not mean to give that impression.

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Why is it that those who keep pointing the finger at lawyers continue to ignore the involvment of the sales and marketing individiuals who probably made a lot more out of the mess than the lawyers.
I wonder why ??

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

That is how my OH earns a living, here and the UK, and I will not apologise for it.

So you would you ban all kinds of gambling, casinos, machines, FOBTs, drink, cigarettes and all vices because the poor and the vunerable also smoke and drink, and alcohol causes violence.

Why not ban internet, where porn is so easily downloaded too.

Sould we spoil it for the majority because some get in too deep? But that is another thread.

Right now there is a trial going on about a woman who was murdered by compulsive gamblers, terrible, but is it really the gambling that is at fault of the killers.

They could have just as easily been drug addicts, and would have killed just the same.

But that is a whole new thread.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

If you make something too easily available, be it gambling , alcohol or drugs abuse and deprivation follows it has ever been the case.
Sadly we reach levels of excess followed by over reaction and prohibition.
Society just does not when to draw the line.
Rather like buying property in Spain etc, easy credit, perceived low prices, sophisticated sales and marketing campaigns ( who financed all those a place in the sun TV progs ) fueled demand which those on the shady side rushed to exploit.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

There are, sadly, too many dishonest and totally unscrupulous people in the world (all over it) who will pull any scam to relieve gullible and sometimes vulnerable people of their money - like the boiler room share dealing operations, the cowboys who manage to persuade elderly people to part with extremely large sums of money for relatively small building jobs such as resurfacing a drive, or take their money and leave their homes in a dangerous condition, even the more "respectable" ones employed by major financial institutions who spent years pushing totally unsuitable financial products to their customers. At least the latter group are now having to pay large sums in compensation for having done so, but in the other cases nobody ever gets their money back, they just have to put it down to bitter experience.

The property scandals in Spain are but one example.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

I watched a news programme today which dealt with extreme cruelty to babies followed by some disgusting treatment of old people and it made me think that you are not safe from the cradle to the grave in this brave world of ours.

It's a bit of a jump from the Spanish property scandals, but perhaps it goes to show that whatever laws we have produced to protect citizens, they are never enough when pure badness surfaces, as it frequently does.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

As a spanish married to a british woman, i have to say i agree with most of what has been said in this forum.
Yet, not only the lawyers, estate agents and similar business men can be blamed.
Most of the buyers (regardles nationality) knew to some point through the buy process that what they were getting at such a cheap price was somehow not 100% legal.
Ourselves, we bought a house a few years ago that was not built in "urban" land, so there was a slight chance of it being demolished.
Before buying, we did our research, saw that no big roads were being built around, and that the area was supposed to be made "urban" within a few years, so there was no big danger.
We bought the house at a very affordable price (compared to what a house built in urban soil would have cost us), and we made it fully aware of the risks.
We saved a lot of money doing it as we did it, and in the first five years, we were not sure what could happen.
After 5 years (after that time, the government can no longer demolish your house) we got the letter from the townhall asking us to start paying our taxes, which we did.
Eventually, the land became urban, and we had to pay our share to pave the roads, set the undergrund pipes, the light posts n all that, which we did happily, as it was a big improvement and would increase the value of the house we were living on.

With this, i want to say that most of the people buying in "not fully legal" areas, or improving the "country houses" to build mansions, were aware of what they were doing, and they knew that they migth have problems.
I was lucky i didnt, but im sure many others did, but no one other than themselves is to blame, as I refuse to believe that anyone is so silly (no ofense here) as to go to another country, and buy a property without making himself fully aware of what he is buying.

After selling that one, we have lived in a couple different places, but every time, we have made sure we knew where we were getting ourselves into.

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Good for you:rolleyes: Just one thing, can't be bothered with the rest tonight....Most people didn't buy those houses cheap, they bought overpriced crap during the boom:frown:

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Just to clear things up, this is not JL making a come back with another persona.:rofl::rofl:

I must add there is nothing like a nice, pleasant, friendly, first post .
:rofl:

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

well, whether i feel sorry for them or not, i have to say that nobody forced them to buy any properties when they were overpriced. I did my research, checked what was a good investment for me and went for it

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Just to clear things
I dont know who "JL" or "me me" is
I saw this forum while trying to find some tax stuff for me n my wife, and decided it was a nice one, though with some wrong concepts, so thought i had to add my opinions here

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As Concierge for the Spanish section of BE I would like to say hello and welcome.

BE is a very large expat website, so if you have problems finding your way around we have concierges who will try to direct you. The moderators for the Spanish forums are Mitzyboy and Fred James, moderators are there to ensure that the site runs smoothly within the rules of BE. Problems and complaints should always be addressed to a moderador who will look into the matter and deal with it efficiently and fairly. Our members who post in the Spain Forums are friendly and helpful with a wealth of knowledge of the issues of living in Spain. At the top of the page you will find a quirkily named thread called Free Beer which is full of important and useful information. Hope you enjoy your time participating in the forums.

Please let me know if you need any further help.

Rosemary