Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

I'd have to say it's madness.
Theres so much property for sale in Spain, why take the risk

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

As Concierge for the Spanish section of BE I would like to say hello and welcome.

BE is a very large expat website, so if you have problems finding your way around we have concierges who will try to direct you. The moderators for the Spanish forums are Mitzyboy and Fred James, moderators are there to ensure that the site runs smoothly within the rules of BE. Problems and complaints should always be addressed to a moderador who will look into the matter and deal with it efficiently and fairly. Our members who post in the Spain Forums are friendly and helpful with a wealth of knowledge of the issues of living in Spain. At the top of the page you will find a quirkily named thread called Free Beer which is full of important and useful information. Hope you enjoy your time participating in the forums.

Offering to sell an illegal house and telling lies about the cost of legalisation and when it can be done is so dishonest. My understanding is that the costs are unknown, whether the house remains standing is unknown and the date when all of this can be sorted is unknown.

Please let me know if you need any further help.

Rosemary

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Agree with Mitzy, sheer madness! It's bad enough when you end up with an illegal house, but to buy one knowing it's illegal???:thumbdown: I know there are thousands of illegal properties in that area, but there must be a few legal one's, there are over 2 million unsold properties in Spain, there's a lot to choose from. ;) There was a programme on ITV last night about whether the time is right to buy now in Spain, there were some incredible bargains. I imagine the sellers must be over the moon at the thought of shifting their illegal property.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

I remember seeing that programme advertised but missed it. Can you give us the gist?

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

I don't think you missed much - it was dross IMO, just old news rehashed, they featured the Priors' house, a few examples of houses being viewed and "five years ago it was worth xxxx and now it's on the market for only xxxx", nothing new at all.

Oh, and my twopennyworth to Gerry75 - as others have said, I wouldn't touch a house you know to be illegal with a bargepole, I certainly wouldn't want the stress or financial uncertainty of not knowing whether it could be legalised or what it might cost if it were possible. It must be awful to have tried to take all possible steps to ensure that you followed the right procedures and took professional advice and in spite of it all ended up with a property that has been deemed illegal for whatever reason, but I could not understand anybody putting themselves in that situation deliberately.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Absolutely. :goodpost:

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Hi

As has been said, the Chiclana Town plan has not officially been announced yet, and will take time to be approved into law. However, if the land the house stands on is approved for building, then some people (including me) will take a chance to buy a very cheap property in a lovely part of the world.

The cost of Urbanisation is unknown; it has been said the price will be capped; but on the other hand, there are those that say it is illegal to subsidise legalisation.

Chiclana is not for the faint-hearted; I sleep well of a night and think that it will all sort itself out many years (decades) after I am gone.

Davexf

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

I agree with that. As you know Dave, we are classed as alegal, which is neither legal nor illegal as we have an older house. My opinion is that it´s dreadful that people who bought new builds in good faith (both Spanish and ex-pat from any country) should be made to pay for the underhand tactics etc of builders, promoters, estate agents, notaries and lawyers.

xxx

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

To misquote Kipling, "You're a braver man than I am, Gunga Din" Cheap it maybe, and if you can sleep well at night, you're on a winner. Problem that I can see is a big percentage of Brits find out Spain is not for them, sometimes it takes years, but if you then decide to up sticks and sell, you can't! If it's that cheap that you can write it off, fine, but I'd guess anyone that buys a cheap illegal build in the first place, is buying it because that's what they can afford, ie can't afford to simply walk away. The fact that the vendor has told the OP that it can be legalised would appear to be telling porkies, not a great start. Anyway, has the OP been frightened off, I don't see any further posts from them.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Hi

And that is why I don't think it will be sorted for a long time. The "builders, promoters, estate agents, notaries and lawyers" simply don't have sufficient money to legalise all the illegal properties.

So who pays? I honestly believe that it is the owners who will eventually be left holding the baby

Davexf

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Why do they need the money if it´s down to the owners?

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

I wish all in Chiclana all the best in their endeavours
BUT....(isn't there always one of those)
Other town halls have tried rewriting their PGOU to include areas already containing illegal properties and had them refused by the Andalucian Junta.
The grounds are that
a) the land wasn't zoned for urbanisation when the properties were built
b) local efforts of zoning for urbanisation will break the law of the land with regard to national Land Law (Ley de Suelo) which takes precedence over regional laws and any regional legislation must reflect any changes made to it.
c) properties built with the expectancy of waiting 4/10 years and getting a walk thru with permissions will not be able to be made legal
d) as the Environmental people continually point out, many illegal properties have no or poor quality sewerage facilities and rely on water courses and wells that are filled from water draining through the land, contaminated by such sewerage.
e) even certificates of habitation issued by Town Halls for properties that are built on Agrario rather than Urbano land are not worth the paper they are printed on.

If you have bought a property that is illegal there is no protection for you or your home - it remains illegal, you should have carried out the proper due diligence and ensured the legal status before handing over a penny.
At the least, if in any doubt, do a google search for Illegal properties in the area you are considering and follow your instincts.

you wouldn't spend quarter of a million pounds on a property in the UK without ensuring every thing is kosher - so why go to a foreign country and do it there without worrying about it.
in fact you wouldn't spend 10k on a car without ensuring it is legal, so what happens when you arrive in the sun, put on a sombrero and start to lose your brains


`

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Hi

Well actually, Yes it was. And that is the crux of the problem. The council published a PGOU and before you could say "Jack Robinson", there were illegal houses built on every piece of land that was zoned for housing.

The houses were built without permission because the fines for doing so were less than the cost of getting permission - and it would take too long to do so.

To demolish the 300,000 illegal houses in Andalucía would be unthinkable. Spain would loose all credence simply thinking it. And the EU wouldn't let it happen.

The solution will be a long time coming - but there will be a solution.

Davexf

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

but if the PGOU defines the land as "urbano" but that hasn't been actioned so the land is still "agrario" then there is a snowballs chance in hell of it being changed
use the catastral facility on Goolzoom, check the status of properties - whilst it "may" be out of date or not updated when you find complete hamlets of new build sitting there on agrario you will see the size of the problem

Albox has over 12,500 illegals in the Almanzora Valley, the latest draft PGOU is proposing the urbanisation of land in areas without any houses or just extending existing urbano segments. This will not resolve the problem.
for someone of say 60 buying a retirement home, even if they live to 80 or 85 they are unlikely to see the property legalised, and if so it will cost them more although they have already paid for all documentation. And paid IBI/Basura all that time
what a situation to leave to the kids when you die
:thumbdown:

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Thanks Lyn

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

So you think if we bought an illegal property here in Spain it is because we lost our brains.

Our biggest mistake was to trust those we should have been able to trust e.g. lawyers, estate agents, bank mangers and their surveyors.

No I wouldn´t expect to buy an illegal property in the U.K. as I would have done exactly what I did in Spain trust the lawyer etc. etc.

Buyers who buy in good faith are not the problem here it is the corrupt people that we dealt with, they are the problem not us.

Our house will eventually be demolished as it is built on protected land (ley de costas) we relied on the lawyer to make sure everything was above board just as we would have done in the U.K.

We bought two houses during our time in the U.K. it never ocurred to us that they would be illegal as we had lawyers dealing with all the paperwork just as we did here in Spain.

Our mistake was that we trusted the professionals who we should have been able to trust to their job correctly.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

The bottom line seems to be that Spain is culturally corrupt so until Spain's courts start taking corruption seriously (maybe next century:() it makes a lot more sense to let your UK home and rent one in Spain.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Well that rules Spain out from the start :D

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

As I said before, you will always have the sabelotodos here accusing people like yourself of leaving their brains on the aircraft etc. Unfortunately, all too many have, like yourself, ended up being the victims of corrupt, inefficient Spanish lawyers, estate agents et al. You went down the correct legal route, and as you say, your only mistake was to believe that you could trust these people. Fatal mistake, easy to say with hindsight, we all know that now. At times it's hard to believe how a supposedly modern EU country can be so backward in so many ways and be so corrupt. And despite a few court cases, I can't really see things getting better anytime soon, corruption is part of being Spanish. I wish you luck.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

I sold my villa recently.
I was put in touch with the buyer after the event and discovered that he had actually paid €10k more than I had been told it had been sold for and that the estate agent had tried to sell the car (which was included in the price) as a separate deal. Originally I had been told that he had offered €20k under the asking price, whereas he had always offered the asking price.

It's not my problem now, as I am out of Spain, but I feel sorry for the buyer who paid €10k in cash at the time of completion. Luckily, I hadn't paid the estate agent his massive fee, so draw your own conclusions.

Buying or selling a property in Spain can be a nightmare. One of the most important pieces of advice I can give is speak directly to the buyer / seller all the time. Then you know exactly what the score is, and each of you would be fully aware of any scams. Trust no one, don't use a solicitor recommended by the seller / estate agent (as my buyer did!) and NEVER get involved in cash payments in the corridor! Do your own checks with the town hall and maybe even use a gestor to do some independent checking for you

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

So its still going on:thumbdown: , out of interest was the agent an expat?

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

The CIA caused it. (otherwise where would they get all that information?)

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

and what are you doing about it ??
Denuncia ?? (perhaps not anything like a sledgehammer thru the window of the office - but if you checked for denuncia's against a "professional" before using them it would come up and you wouldn't use them.
Legal action ?? (OK so it will take decades for that to go through, but they still have a duty of care and a professional body that seems to cover things up.)

Probably the Notary is the one who should take the most blame - they are supposed to ensure it is all kosher and all the paperwork is correct and in place.

When we made an offer on an (illegal) house earlier this year we paid the deposit to our Spanish solicitor who is in the UK, when we found it was illegal we didn't even lose that money or have a fight with the (all English) Estate Agent to get it back.

`

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

but hasn't the Junta's Director of Housing, Environment and something else hinted at that, when she said it was all the fault of the foreigners who came to Spain and just built houses where they felt like it, never getting a single permission ??

Still can't work out how it is possible to get a Cert of Habitation on an illegal house - but then the manufacturers of little brown envelopes are still doing well.
;)

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Two expats and a Spaniard. I get the impression that the Spaniard was the main man pulling the strings, certainly the stuff they stole and the car ended up with him as far as I know.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Maybe the answer is to "nationalise" them.
Let the existing owners stay in them with any existing mortgages, fees and taxes still to be paid, but they must be maintained, can't be rented out or sold (as if!). On death, default, if the owners are unable / unwilling or if they wish to just give them up, they revert to the state.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Hi

No you miss the point; if they are allowed to stand, then let the owners legalise them. I repeat, I can't see the Junta allowing total demolition - there would be civil war. Therefore if they exist, then they should be allowed to enter a Western World state of legality

Davexf

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

What would the state do with them? If the original owners weren't allowed to rent them out or sell them, surely the state couldn't either, or that would just amount to appropriation of privately owned assets. Most of them wouldn't be suitable for use as social housing, either - I can't see the Spanish Government suddenly starting to house unemployed or low-income people in villas with swimming pools, somehow, or that anybody would be too happy about it if they did! The majority of the properties are in areas where people needing to look for work wouldn't want to be living anyway.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Yes, sure. But owned by the state. That way the current occupiers don't get thrown onto the streets. The buildings are kept in good repair or vacated. Their presence (as state owned) is legal and once the current occupiers have finished with them, they can be used as cheap/social housing or possibly sold off (as the UKs council houses were, under Maggie) and the money used to lower taxes.

Lynn R: Nothing gets appropriated as the current occupiers can stay in them - just not make any money from them. It's better than destroying them and "society" gets the benefit, since "society" took the hit of having to put up with illegal builds. Maybe instead of people looking for work, the work could come looking for the people? Company towns were a feature of the 19th century. Maybe a multinational could build a factory (legally :thumbsup:) and buy up the nearby houses and rent them to employees at subsidised rates?

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

So what you are saying that the houses should be taken over by the state, and the state being so generous will allow the owners to live there, but not be able to sell their homes or "make money from them".

Very noble, I´m sure.:confused:
Then the houses used as social houses, or sold and the money made could lower taxes.:rofl::rofl:

You may think your suggestion is a good one, but it is one of the worst I have heard.

Why should a duped buyers assets be used to lower taxes? I am sure if your home was illegal you would not have come up with such a bright :confused: idea.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

I'm afraid I would see that as appropriation if I were in that very unfortunate position. A house is, for most people, by far their most expensive asset. If someone has, despite having followed all legal procedures and availed themself of professional legal services, bought a property that was declared illegal after the purchase
had taken place, the fact is that they would under your scheme be prevented from deriving any income from it, from selling it to get their money back, or from passing it on to their heirs. Instead, it would pass to the Government who could then sell it to lower taxes (as if!), the property having by some arcane process become legal enough to sell although the Government refused to legalise it before it took possession?

If the areas where the majority of these properties are located (like inland Axarquia not far from where I live) is deemed unsuitable for housing because it is rural land, why would anybody (most of all environmentalists) want industry to locate there? What kind of industry could it possibly be anyway, far from large conurbations or good road links to transport their goods? Thinking of what some of the "company towns" of the 19th century were like, I hardly think that would be an improvement on the present situation!

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Lorries up those "roads" all day :eek:
its hell on wheels now for those who live and work there, delivery vehicles to bars etc

Remember Dormanstown, large company township, back in the 60's and 70's it was turning into a slum like Coronation street and got worse when the steel works and others started the slow process of shutting down.

Some people have "taken" prominent positions over looking the bays of the CDS etc, but it has proven to be a poison chalice as there would normally be huge protests from the Environmental as well as Planning people. But the attitude is "possession is 9 tenths of the law".
Just the 1 tenth has more sway than their 9.
;)

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

[QUOTE=agoreira;10925318]I suspect the lack of interest in your thread is that most of the members hate to admit there is anything wrong with Spain, that there is corruption on a unprecedented scale, that all the Brits caught up in these massive scandals left their brains on the aircraft and it's purely down to them for the sad state they find themselves in.

Forget the hundreds of thousands of illegal builds in Spain, if you could find a case of an illegal house in UK and posted that, you'd be swamped with replies!;) I posted an almost identical article recently, I wish you luck, you have my sympathy, I can imagine what you must be going through. http://sociedad.elpais.com/sociedad/...30_335439.html[/QUO TE]

How true, there are no bent mayors, taxation of ex-pats is totally fair, everyone carries a fluorescent vest for every seat in the car, a full set of replacement light bulbs and a spare pair of glasses (if applicable), along with their original passport, driving license and insurance schedule, that they leave in their car when only wearing t shirt and shorts. They believe that the UK is in total melt down, only awaiting aid befitting a third world country, all Brits envy ex-pats in Spain who are living the high life.

It is almost impossible to build an illegal house in the UK, due to laws/rules and regulations that appear draconian when you are involved with them, but would welcome the same in Spain with open arms. I recall asking for information as to what a buyer actually owned having purchased in an apart-hotel development, I never received a satisfactory answer, perhaps that is one reason why you can pick one up for circa €180,000 as against the original asking price of €399,000.

A lot of UK ex-pats in Spain are in denial, which is not a long river in Africa. They are locked in to properties that they will never be able to sell due to vast over supply. We were totally focused into joining them, that is until we came to our senses. We both love Spain and have travelled extensively within it and it's territories, neither of us fancy getting into residency problems, and in the unlikely event of us buying a property, we would place it within a UK Ltd company.

Cheers guys. :)

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

[QUOTE=crookesey;10933599]As Concierge for the Spanish section of BE I would like to say hello and welcome.

BE is a very large expat website, so if you have problems finding your way around we have concierges who will try to direct you. The moderators for the Spanish forums are Mitzyboy and Fred James, moderators are there to ensure that the site runs smoothly within the rules of BE. Problems and complaints should always be addressed to a moderador who will look into the matter and deal with it efficiently and fairly. Our members who post in the Spain Forums are friendly and helpful with a wealth of knowledge of the issues of living in Spain. At the top of the page you will find a quirkily named thread called Free Beer which is full of important and useful information. Hope you enjoy your time participating in the forums.

Please let me know if you need any further help.

Rosemary

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

I too absolutely agree and of course in the UK the SRA is so active and in current times I have to say that some Solicitors who themselves have to pay overheads are taking chances. It is not worth it you will get found out.

But that is the UK this is Spain

In France the Notaire who is a Government employee does not act for either the purchaser or the vendor. So a lot of caveat emptor exists and UK purchaser go to lawyers in the UK who are governed by their professional body for advice. The Notaire is simply a tax collector. But the system is sound.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

[QUOTE=Rosemary;10933974]Many thanks, this forum looks cool, unlike some where strangers are immediately attacked by the self appointed forum warriors. I despair of some folk, I actually think that many are trolls pretending to be the fountains of all knowledge relative to Spanish living.

It will be good to chat to folk who might just be able to answer my questions honestly, perhaps you would be so kind as to let me know which members are good on anything Benissa coast.

Cheers :thumbsup:

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

[QUOTE=crookesey;10934214]Ive been to Benissa a few times on photographic trips. I was a bit further north in the Gandia area

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

Like anywhere, there are certain members who live in a world they wish for - these are normally the ones who don't get out much, but want to believe they do...

...and others who live in the real world, these are the ones who have to face reality: going to work, paying the rent/mortgage, electricity, heating, maintaining the house and the car - filling it with petrol, dealing with taxes, and bureaucracy/corruption, avoiding getting nicked or defrauded, etc.

Obviously, you get very different viewpoints from both...

Welcome to the zoo. Which category do you fit into?

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

So I should be happy to be allowed to live in my home that I have a mortgage to pay for the next 16 years, not be allowed to sell it or leave it to my children. Some people just don´t seem to get it that we did nothing wrong, it was the corrupt professionals we dealt with who did. Why should I have to buy a family home and then give it away. Perhaps if some of the people saying these things were in the same situation as us they would view things a little differently. We have spoken to many people who purchased property here and they all say the same thing to us - we didn´t do anything any different to you. We were just the unlucky ones who got shafted.

Re: Demolition is proving difficult
 

That's socialism for you. You get benefits and freebies, but at the end of the day, the government more or less owns you, can impose their will, collect tax for everything in the interest of the "common good", spend it foolishly and/or pocket it, fostering distrust, which discourages transparency, increases corruption and under the table dealings, enabling savvy, connected "professionals" to legally defraud you, and at the end of the day, it's your fault...