Originally Posted by poollounger

I love Bangkok, it's noise, it's sleaze and sheer fun and friendliness, but there are numerous fraudsters, from my personal experience, and every guidebok that warns about them. There is the gemstones fraud which is well known but people still fall for, and simpler ones like the very friendly guy who asks where you are from etc etc then mentions that the govt is introducing a new tax on tailor made clothes tomorrow, but he can take you to a friend who will make you one back dated so you do not have to pay. We had this tried on us. Harmless in itself and easy to walk away but a con nonetheless.
My favoured property when searching was one that turned out to have no legal meter. The vendor kept saying a deposit was about to be placed,and our agent couldn't understand the vendors procrastination when we were so interested. Turned out the neighbour had reneged on the agreement to share a meter, and she would not let use pursue it any further without the guarantee of a legal meter, even though she might have ended up with no sale! This does not appear to me to be an agent who says whatever the buyer wants to hear.
Again you generalise about builders, which is not always true. Some may behave as you infer, others patently do not. My plot is freehold, with a well positioned house. The vendor stops when he sees us visiting and chats, and has rectified a few minor snags when he had no legal duty to do so.
In Britain unless one has a guarantee on a new house, any snags post purchase are the buyers responsibility. Can you imagine trying to get an estate agent to deal with newly discoverd damp or rot or boundary disputes ??
Again I wish some Spanish lawyer would give us a definitive view on the legality or not of new building. I was purchasing a house in the country near Arcos initially. Only the land was on the deeds, the lawyer said not to proceed. The owner got the house listed, supposedly legalised (retrospectively), the lawyer, in Jerez, said Ok, go ahead now. It fell through for unrelated reasons.
No place is perfect and to expect it to be is a sure cue for disappointment.
By the way plenty of places I would like to live in Britain...Suffolk, Rural Essex, North Yorkshire Moors and many more... If only the sun would shine more often!!

Originally Posted by mitzipurr

... What I said was that houses have been constructed without planning permission and are still being built without it and the town hall is turning a blind eye to it. Even you surely cannot deny that. ...

Originally Posted by Unexpat

So you know for a fact that the ayuntamiento have received complaints about the illegal builds? Because if they haven't, they are unlikely to take action.

The local planning authority is unlikely to have the resources to police every new build and check that it is complying with the law. No different from the UK - unless someone objects, the local planning authority won't get involved.

Just curious to clarify whether they are blantantly turning a blind eye, or whether they are operating within their normal MO.

Originally Posted by mitzipurr

Have no idea if anybody has complained or not and I did not say that. What I did say is that they are turning a blind eye to it. However knowing this town it would not surprise me if it is the normal MO.

Originally Posted by Harley69

Yes i agree that the main problem lay with the authorities... However you can't just blame the authorities. What about the agents who sell these properties, the solicitor who allows you to buy them and in some cases the banks that give you mortgages on them.... It's a vicious circle... If they all turned there back on illegal builds then nobody would build them and everything would have to be above board.

Originally Posted by Harley69

Truth is there is no quick fix...
The situation will have to get better eventually, but it's going to take years....

Originally Posted by Harley69

Yes i agree that the main problem lay with the authorities... However you can't just blame the authorities. What about the agents who sell these properties, the solicitor who allows you to buy them and in some cases the banks that give you mortgages on them.... It's a vicious circle... If they all turned there back on illegal builds then nobody would build them and everything would have to be above board.

Truth is there is no quick fix... The situation will have to get better eventually, but it's going to take years....

Originally Posted by Arco-Iris

Thank you Harley for clarifying your opinion.

Mitzipurr and Unexpat - I think you have given some very useful information and advice to prepare people for some of the pitfalls in buying property in the Chiclana area. I have tried to pull some of this together on an information sheet - for what purpose I'm not yet sure! Would you both be willing to receive this via a p.m. for your comments?

I live in the Chiclana area and although have not had personal experience of an illegal property, electricity problems etc., I know of several people who are living in precarious, distressing situations. Sadly, fore-warning information won't help them, but may be of some benefit to others who are just starting out.

Originally Posted by Unexpat

And is it so clear cut? What's illegal today may be legal tommorrow. It's easy to see how these things happen. Some of you want a black and white situation and to transfer the responsibility to some else, well it's not that easy.

In the real world things are shades of grey and the bucks stops with you in terms of whether you let yourself get ripped off, or not. This is the way it is in Spain and strange as it may seem, this is part of what I like about this country.

That doesn't mean I approve of the system, or the practices, merely that I understand the reasons for them and armed with that knowledge I can go out there and be less likely to make the mistake of putting my trust in someone, or something, that does not have my best interests at heart.

This I can agree with ;)

Originally Posted by poollounger

Ah Unexpat extremely well put !! What I was trying to get at in all my ramblings is exactly that...this seems to be the way things are done in Spain, and yes I was surprised when I made my initial forays, but that is the way things are. I was told time and again that things are not the same as they are in Britain, by many agents in many areas. Spanish friends laughed as we drove past properties for sale as they pointed out the ones built without planning permission that the authorities were threatening to demolish, but doubted it would ever happen. This was near Huelva not Chiclana. Some posters give the impression that there is a giant cartel of agents, builders, vendors and the authorities all out to scam Expats. This seems to me unlikely, but along with those who seem to infer it is, I have no evidence to prove it. There are stories to tell of contentious purchases all over Spain, and I bet the same could be uncovered in many other countries. Thailand has strict laws against the puchase of freehold property by foreigners, which many do by finding loopholes to exploit. Yes protect youself by all means, and don't be duped, but to go into another country and insist that they behave as you would wish them too seems to me to be an arrogance that can only alienate one from the natives.

Originally Posted by mitzipurr

Poolounger I suggest you tell the people who are living in precarious, distressing situations that things are done this way in Spain. These are not my words but a previous poster. I also would regard it as anything but a laughing matter, Regarding Thailand having strict laws not sure what this has to do with Chiclana as I thought that is what we were talking about?? Nobody is expecting to go into another country and expect the natives to behave as you do but honesty and decency are traits that all human beings should have in them!!

Originally Posted by mitzipurr

... but honesty and decency are traits that all human beings should have in them!!

Originally Posted by Unexpat

Should, but perhaps I have become cynical with age and I expect a much wider spectrum of behaviour from my fellow human beings. Honesty and decency are, after all, subjective and human nature in general is to look after oneself first. Ignoring these realities will just lead to frustration, however much we may wish for an alternative idealogy.

Unfortunately, I suspect that continuing this particular discussion is going to get us into a philosophical debate that is perhaps beyond the scope of this thread, even though the title of it is arguably somewhat metaphysical ;).