Re: Chiclana dream
 

I would just like to say " Good Luck " to all the people that are having problems with their illegal builds...

Having already purchased a home abroad i know just how stressful the whole process can be, even when things go right...

At the end of the day we all try our best to gather the necessary information prior to purchasing to avoid the pitfalls, but unfortunately it all boils down to one thing "TRUST" whether it be your solicitor, agents etc...

I'm wonder how these people can sleep at night knowing full well they have misinformed you. To top it off they even charged you for the services... The only consolation is that it doesn't only happen in Spain. Corruption and deceit is every where and it's their way of life.

Us Brits seem to be the only ones that live by the book and it's not until we move abroad that this becomes apparent...

So Good Luck to you all... Hope it all works out for you guys... :)

Re: Chiclana dream
 

I can't believe, Harley 69, that you really think that the British are the only ones who do things by the book - that there's no fraud, corruption, deceit and double-dealing in UK, or amongst the British communities in foreign countries.

Just take a look at some of the threads here and on other fora and you will see a lot of complaints about British ex-pats being ripped off by their own countryman - plumbers, electricians, estate agents, insurance underwriters.

I hope you will open your eyes and see that rogues with an eye to the main chance, preying on vulnerable, inexperienced people exist the world over, including Britain.

The comments such as yours could be very offensive to non-British people, many of whom contribute to this forum.

Re: Chiclana dream
 

I must write in the defence of Harley 69. I dont think he said that the British are the only people doing things by the book. What he did say is that there are problems of deceit the whole world over. However surely the blame for all the problems that people have when they purchase a illegal house in Spain must lie squarely at the feet of the person who constructed it and the authorities that have ignored it. You cannot deny or get away from that fact.

There are rogues the whole world over but unfortunately many on this forum have had bad experiences when they have purchased property in Spain. They have a right to voice their opinions in a free and democratic society This in turn puts Spain firmly in the firing line until it cleans is act up...

Re: Chiclana dream
 

I did not realise that you were not living in Spain full-time. Then now I can understand why you view it as you do and yes it is very different being here permanently.

You really do have a way with words and especially in this thread it is almost as though you have drifted onto another hemisphere...

I agree the choice of environment is very important and you are fortunate from what you say about yours!! I was lucky enough to have over one month in Asia last summer well away from the tourist areas. Now that really did give me a lift. I can concur completely when you say you did not want to leave. I cannot wait to go back. Different countries have different cultures. When I was on holiday everbody was quietly spoken, courteous, obliging and polite. Today I visted the tourist office whilst I was talking to the lady behind the counter a very rude Spanish girl standing behind me interrupted I told her to wait her turn. Than I was buying my bread and there were a few customers in all shouting at each other even though they were stood almost together, of course none of them expected to wait their turn, and when finally I was served the bread was thrown on the counter along with the change and a thank you was nowhere to be heard - maybe it was drowned out with all the shouting!!!

I am so pleased to hear your house is legal and that you have that all important accessory for any home - the electricity meter. I am also in this fortunate position but I often spare a thought and are really upset for others who do not enjoy similar luxuries because they trusted the wrong person. If only they had known about this forum before...

Re: Chiclana dream
 

Ok, so he said "seem to be", but to all other intents and purposes he did say what you said he didn't, Mitzipurr. Sorry.The entire blame lies with the vendor. It's an illegal build, either being misrepresented, or simply being sold to the uninformed. I don't think you can apportion any of the blame to the authorities, unless you can prove that they are knowingly turning a blind eye.

All the authorities can do is to define the law and attempt to enforce it when a criminal breach is committed. I suspect that these transgressions come under civil breaches and are therefore not actively policed, unless complaints are received. Even then, it may be left to the civil courts to redress the situation - using the law as the yardstick against which to dispense justice.

As far as rogues are concerned, I can agree that you will find them everywhere, including Spain. Can we ever expect such rogues to clean up their act? I'm not holding my breath. In the meantime, all we can do is arm ourselves with as much information as possible, to avoid being conned.

In the UK it should be noted that misrepresentation in the sale of property, continues - hence the continued attempts at tweaking the law, such as the "seller's pack", etc. Should the UK also "clean up it's act"? Such things are rarely easy to legislate for without restricting the freedoms of honest people. I would rather take a few knocks on the chin, learn and move on than have to live in an over-legislated state where I have no responsibility for the consequences of my own actions and decisions because the nanny state looks after everything for me.

Re: Chiclana dream
 

Hi Arco-Iris

I'm sorry if i have offened you or any one else for that matter. That's the trouble when you put things in writing, as they can be easily mis-interpreted

However i wasn't having a go at the Spanish or any other nationality. There are good and bad people everywhere and that includes the British.

However i was referring to the sale procedures. I have yet to meet anyone in the UK who has purchased an illegal property in England. I'm not saying in doesn't happen, but i very much doubt it's on the same scale. I can only assume this is because our laws are easier to understand and more enforced...

You can't blame the locals (in which ever country) for building illegal properties, when they know that by paying a small fine they save on time and money by avoiding the proper channels...

Just to clarify one last thing... When i mentioned about "corruption and deceit" i was actually talking about some of the lengths estate agents (from what i have read most are British) go to in order to make you think the property is legal. It's also a shame the some solicitors don't always pick up on this...

Still Spain is a wonderful place and so are the Spanish, hence why so many Brits including myself want to move over there...

Hope i have explained myself better this time...

Re: Chiclana dream
 

Was intending to give this forum a rest for a while but....
Mitzi one can use instances all over the world to demonstrate good and bad. I spent 6 months in Frankfurt and could so easily have become anti-German if it wasn't for the country people who descended once a week at the farmers market...a different kettle of fish. The Italians who stopped me in my car and attempted to defraud me with a hard luck story and fake Armani jackets are not representaive of my Italian friends. We both share a passion for Thailand and it's people but Bangkok is full of fraudsters. And if I was so inclined the antics of the Jewish girl I shared a flat with in my youth could have turned me seriously anti semitic.So far our experiences in Chiclana have been nothing but helpful friendliness. far beyond what I would expect and receive in England, at least in London.
As to illegal builds....all the posts seem to infer that the vendors and builders are colluding in some deliberate fraud. In my understanding this is just usual practice. In the more developed Costas things may be expected to be done more by the book, but Chiclana is still at heart a country town with country practices, which as I have stated before involve putting up a house on one's land when required and not concerning too much over planning permission and legality. The commercial builders are perhaps to keen to carry on in the same way, or perhaps this is the way they too considered was nromal practice.I was surprised and cynical when I was first told about this way of doing things, but was re assured, sometimes a little shamefacedly, by lawyers, that this was normal practice. It is difficult to comment on individual cases, but perhaps the sheer volume of new builds in Chiclana is what is causing the current problem ?? I wish there was a Spanish lawyer on this forum who could comment. And again, are agents willfully misrepresenting the facts about the houses they are selling ?? Perhaps some are and some aren't.
I am not crowing about the fact that I seem to have been lucky, and sympathise with those in predicaments, but do not hold that this is all some giant scam.
Finally, to say that everything is done by the board in Britain is laughable. The procedures may be adhered too, but the rules are twisted to meet the neccessary objectives. I went to a planning meeting where it was stressed that all sorts of conditions would be met by the new express store which was being built locally, none of which have transpired!!

Re: Chiclana dream
 

Harley..just curious.. where did you buy abroad? which country ??

Re: Chiclana dream
 

Good post, which I think touches on the reality of the matter.

As for UK planning, I too saw this working up close, to my detriment, and it could not have been described as anywhere near above-board, or by the book. Vested interests in the planning authority and politics on the planning committee meant one law for some and another for the rest. I never thought that I would describe such behaviour as corruption, in the UK, but that is what it was. Well, older and wiser with each day ;)

Re: Chiclana dream
 

I have a property in Fethiye Turkey.

Re: Chiclana dream
 

May i add i have also lived in Italy and both countries have a very similar to Spain when it comes down to illegal propery builds. It's a way of life and we outsiders have to accept it...

Re: Chiclana dream
 

I was also hoping for a rest....

We seem to have done most of the same things as I also spent 6 months in Berlin before the wall came down. The people were nice and the place itself was spotlessly clean. I have no knowledge of Italian people so cannot comment. I would have to take issue with the statement that Bangkok is full of fraudsters - I never met any. We know many people in Thailand who have lived there quite some time and visit Bangkok frequently and have nothing but praise for the city and its people although it is very congested. You are very fortunate to have these wonderful experiences here in Chiclana. I am not saying that everything is bad here but I think everyone on this forum would know in their heart of hearts that there is many things need sorting out. Of course I would not change anywhere in UK for Spain.

Re: Chiclana dream
 

Last post mistake will resubmit

Re: Chiclana dream
 

I was also hoping for a rest....

I also spent 6 months in Germany Berlin before the wall came down. The people were nice and the place itself was spotlessly clean. I have no knowledge of Italian people so cannot comment. I sincerely hope that there are no Thais reading your response as they may be likely to take offence with your sweeping statement that “Bangkok is full of fraudsters” - I never met any and I know many people who have lived in Thailand for some time and visit Bangkok frequently and have nothing but praise for the city and its people. Although the do say it is very congested which I agree with. You are very fortunate to have these wonderful experiences here in Chiclana. I am not saying that everything is bad here but I think everyone on this forum knows in their heart of hearts that there are many serious problems which need addressing. Of course I would not change anywhere in UK for Spain that is why I left over 10 years ago.


As to illegal builds. This is how I see it and I am sure you or someone else will correct me if I am wrong and I base this on my experience and information gathered from reliable sources and not “chinese whispers”!!

To get permission and in order to make the house legal the first thing you must do is employ the services of architect. He then submits the plans to the town hall for planning permission. What happens in Chiclana is the builder divides a piece of land and builds quickly as many houses on the plot as he can ignoring all rules and regulations. When I first came to Chiclana nearly two years ago it was common practice to see a person sat with a mobile phone near a construction site and if any police etc came near he would warn them to get off site.

I really don’t see how you can compare the constructors here in Chiclana to the farmers of years gone by who think it is perfectly OK for them to carry on in the 21st century the way they did decades ago!! As long as there are people out there who will soak up this as being “normal” then it will continue. At the end of the day nobody cares when you have paid maybe all your life savings on your dream home only to find yourself in a nightmare situation.

Yes it is a big problem the sheer volume of illegal new builds. However this will continue along the same path and the only people that can do anything about it are the authorities who could if they really wanted to put a stop to it. Do you seriously mean to tell me that the town hall do not know that this is going on!

Many agents will tell you just what you want to hear regardless of the situation it will leave you in. Regarding being shamefaced I suggest you take the same information to a reputable lawyer in another part of Spain and see his reaction. In my circumstance my lawyer who I have known for years from the Costa del Sol refused to handle my house purchase here.

Re: Chiclana dream
 

I love Bangkok, it's noise, it's sleaze and sheer fun and friendliness, but there are numerous fraudsters, from my personal experience, and every guidebok that warns about them. There is the gemstones fraud which is well known but people still fall for, and simpler ones like the very friendly guy who asks where you are from etc etc then mentions that the govt is introducing a new tax on tailor made clothes tomorrow, but he can take you to a friend who will make you one back dated so you do not have to pay. We had this tried on us. Harmless in itself and easy to walk away but a con nonetheless.
My favoured property when searching was one that turned out to have no legal meter. The vendor kept saying a deposit was about to be placed,and our agent couldn't understand the vendors procrastination when we were so interested. Turned out the neighbour had reneged on the agreement to share a meter, and she would not let use pursue it any further without the guarantee of a legal meter, even though she might have ended up with no sale! This does not appear to me to be an agent who says whatever the buyer wants to hear.
Again you generalise about builders, which is not always true. Some may behave as you infer, others patently do not. My plot is freehold, with a well positioned house. The vendor stops when he sees us visiting and chats, and has rectified a few minor snags when he had no legal duty to do so.
In Britain unless one has a guarantee on a new house, any snags post purchase are the buyers responsibility. Can you imagine trying to get an estate agent to deal with newly discoverd damp or rot or boundary disputes ??
Again I wish some Spanish lawyer would give us a definitive view on the legality or not of new building. I was purchasing a house in the country near Arcos initially. Only the land was on the deeds, the lawyer said not to proceed. The owner got the house listed, supposedly legalised (retrospectively), the lawyer, in Jerez, said Ok, go ahead now. It fell through for unrelated reasons.
No place is perfect and to expect it to be is a sure cue for disappointment.
By the way plenty of places I would like to live in Britain...Suffolk, Rural Essex, North Yorkshire Moors and many more... If only the sun would shine more often!!