Chiclana
May 22nd 2006, 7:57 pm
#46
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Re: Chiclana
Originally Posted by Arco-Iris
Sadly this thread ground to a halt when it was hijacked by folk wanting to know about the road system.
I have been reading this and the Bank Loans thread started by Mitzipurr, trying to make sense of what exactly is going on with our properties in Chiclana. A notice appeared in my buzon today, rallying people to "help themselves" and to meet up regarding the electricity issue (good idea) but to cap it all, I'm informed that whether we have meters or not, if we do not have a "Certificado de Primero Ocupacion", we are deemed illegal.
It is a very strange state of affairs, as someone else has pointed out, that the Hacienda can keep 7% of purchase price, the Town Hall will happily register your property, the Escritura all seems legal and, yet, without this certificate we are deemed illegal by the Ayuntamiento and liable to be fined. In steps a Bank, offering loans to pay for such fines (note, not to pay for urbanisation - these costs are separate and based on your 2M of land).
It seems that Mitizipurr's information is correct - outside of Chiclana town and the beach areas, there are very few new properties that had permission to build and so Certificates of First Occupancy will not be included in the documents.
From another person's post, it seems the Town Hall will only catch up with us when we're due to be urbanised ( or want an electricity contract). By then, I may be pushing up the daisies or, with any luck, will be given a Certificate retrospectively, without penalities.
Have I got the picture now? Have I misunderstood anything? I will try to obtain further information from the imminent "Help Yourself" meeting. Any other information from you folk out there would also be welcome. Many thanks.
I have been reading this and the Bank Loans thread started by Mitzipurr, trying to make sense of what exactly is going on with our properties in Chiclana. A notice appeared in my buzon today, rallying people to "help themselves" and to meet up regarding the electricity issue (good idea) but to cap it all, I'm informed that whether we have meters or not, if we do not have a "Certificado de Primero Ocupacion", we are deemed illegal.
It is a very strange state of affairs, as someone else has pointed out, that the Hacienda can keep 7% of purchase price, the Town Hall will happily register your property, the Escritura all seems legal and, yet, without this certificate we are deemed illegal by the Ayuntamiento and liable to be fined. In steps a Bank, offering loans to pay for such fines (note, not to pay for urbanisation - these costs are separate and based on your 2M of land).
It seems that Mitizipurr's information is correct - outside of Chiclana town and the beach areas, there are very few new properties that had permission to build and so Certificates of First Occupancy will not be included in the documents.
From another person's post, it seems the Town Hall will only catch up with us when we're due to be urbanised ( or want an electricity contract). By then, I may be pushing up the daisies or, with any luck, will be given a Certificate retrospectively, without penalities.
Have I got the picture now? Have I misunderstood anything? I will try to obtain further information from the imminent "Help Yourself" meeting. Any other information from you folk out there would also be welcome. Many thanks.
Says there were 500 legal builds in last year . perhaps someone could confirm my understanding.
May 22nd 2006, 8:04 pm
#47
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Re: Chiclana
Originally Posted by mitzipurr
Thank you Arco-Iris for your input on this matter. I have been told on good authority that any property that does not have the LFO is indeed deemed illegal and liable to a fine. What a unbelievable situation that nearly 20000 of us now find themselves in. Also what is most worrying that I have been told by urbanismo because the do not have this licence the town hall class the land they are built on as rustic. As to the old cry "oh this is Spain/Chiclana and thing are done different here" let me tell you that things are changing. I will give you a example below.
In the near future Spain as a full member will have to contribute billions of euros to the EEC instead of receiving huge amounts as they have done in the past. According to my bank Hacienda is now notified automatically if you deposit or take out more than 3000 euros in cash (not so long ago it was 12000). So I guess that is the start of the claw back and the end of the black money.
In the near future Spain as a full member will have to contribute billions of euros to the EEC instead of receiving huge amounts as they have done in the past. According to my bank Hacienda is now notified automatically if you deposit or take out more than 3000 euros in cash (not so long ago it was 12000). So I guess that is the start of the claw back and the end of the black money.
May 22nd 2006, 8:28 pm
#48
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Re: Chiclana
Just read on another website that with the UniCaja loan offer to help pay for legalization is an agreement by Sevilla-Endessa to supply electricity and for sanitation services to be put in place , so a meter may now be easier to come by but doesn't make you urbanised or legal, that chain of events will follow in the years to come.
May 22nd 2006, 8:37 pm
#49
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Re: Chiclana
Originally Posted by Mourinho
Just read on another website that with the UniCaja loan offer to help pay for legalization is an agreement by Sevilla-Endessa to supply electricity and for sanitation services to be put in place , so a meter may now be easier to come by but doesn't make you urbanised or legal, that chain of events will follow in the years to come.
May 22nd 2006, 8:46 pm
#50
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Re: Chiclana
Originally Posted by scottie 50
Could you tell us which website this came from?.thanks john
surinenglish , also update on the Marbella area scandal , perhaps thats why Chiclana seems to be trying to sort illegal situation a pace .
May 22nd 2006, 9:05 pm
#51
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Re: Chiclana
Originally Posted by Mourinho
Todays news says and i have to admit don't understand it all , but there is a first draft of law stating there will be no amenesty for illegal homes, the main man at the council says " those who bought an illegal house also bought the problem " may be 15000 houses , also repeats what has been the main message they are trying to get across, they will ensure the fines on illegal builds will be greater than the cost of building legally , in fact the article says if property is demolished the owner will have to pay for the cost of work, this may occur when an area is urbanised and properties are situated where new roads for example should be going or buildings erected in the green zones .
Says there were 500 legal builds in last year . perhaps someone could confirm my understanding.
Says there were 500 legal builds in last year . perhaps someone could confirm my understanding.
This is very serious stuff where did you read this. I presume the main man at the council is denying all responsibility for allowing them to be built in the first place?
I cannot confirm the figure of 500 legal builds in the last year but I am certain that the illegal builds constructed last year far outweigh this number.
Why should the whole sorry mess fall onto the shoulders of the innocent house buyer who has done all the right things by using a Estate Agent,Spanish Lawyer, Notary and paid 7% IVA on his purchase. Some of these illegal properties even pay IBI to the council!
Only last month I was shown a plot of land with a old finca on it. I was informed that they will be constructing 4 houses on the plot using just the one electric meter belonging to the finca. Why doesn't the council put a stop to this. What a silly queston think we all know the reason
??
May 22nd 2006, 10:12 pm
#52
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Re: Chiclana
I can see this is going to run and run . And yes Iris is right, no offence to those who sidetracked us into motorway chat, but please start a new thread next time. I know I am as guilty as anyone of going off at a tangent, and that is fun at times, but lets keep this one to the point. Legal or illegal, that is the question. Whether it is all in the mind or is rooted in fact?? Again it all seems to be hearsay and conjecture. I raised the question of the Licencia de Primera etc etc with my agent when I first became aware of all these problems, and was told that is was not necessary as there had been a house on the plot previously. I am not trivialising anyone's post, but surely the fact that we cannot have a single concrete statement is proof that there is confusion, rather than malicious deceit behind it all ? It is good to have all the info if you are about to purchase, but for those of us who have already done so, what is the point of constantly worrying??? When we have a definitive clarification, and can do something to rectify the situation, if rectification is needed, then surely that is the time to mass troops and plan a line of defence, attack or whatever??
May 22nd 2006, 10:38 pm
#53
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Re: Chiclana
Originally Posted by poollounger
I can see this is going to run and run . And yes Iris is right, no offence to those who sidetracked us into motorway chat, but please start a new thread next time. I know I am as guilty as anyone of going off at a tangent, and that is fun at times, but lets keep this one to the point. Legal or illegal, that is the question. Whether it is all in the mind or is rooted in fact?? Poollounger I suggest you go to urbanismo and ask this question Again it all seems to be hearsay and conjecture. I raised the question of the Licencia de Primera etc etc with my agent when I first became aware of all these problems, and was told that is was not necessary as there had been a house on the plot previously. I think your agent is wrong if you have altered the build.I am not trivialising anyone's post, but surely the fact that we cannot have a single concrete statement is proof that there is confusion, rather than malicious deceit behind it all ? [B]What more proof do you want then the Mayor admitting that there is nearly 20000 illegal houses in Chiclana[/B] It is good to have all the info if you are about to purchase, but for those of us who have already done so, what is the point of constantly worrying??? When we have a definitive clarification, and can do something to rectify the situation, if rectification is needed, then surely that is the time to mass troops and plan a line of defence, attack or whatever??
May 23rd 2006, 7:28 am
#54
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Joined: Oct 2005
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Re: Chiclana
Mitzi in my experience Mayors say whatever seems politically expedient at the time. In view of the Marbella fracas perhaps the Mayor of Chiclana thinks he will be seen as honest and tough by acknowledging the illegal builds?? How does he know the exact number?? How does anyone know without a comprehensive survey ?? Here in London our Mr Livingstone often trumpets facts which personal experience dictates are otherwise.
Talk of a new law denying any amnesty and levying hefty fines on illegal builds (see Mourinho's post) in green areas and future roadways seems a sensible way forward. Imagine if people began to build in the midst of Chiclana's lovely pine forests ? Considering coming over there permanently and indulging in property refurbishment I was shown a lovely old finca built on agricultural land. It was derelict, but the agent was adamant that it could be restored in any configuration provided the aerial pics were the same, ie we never strayed outside the footprint. I have rain checked this idea. In the adjacent field was a new build which I was assured was illegal.
I reiterate that again there is so much hearsay. Has anyone knowledge of a single property being demolished?? How come even people with acknowledged illegal properties are getting meters installed??
I think the hidden agenda may be...and this is conjecture...that they want to scare people who will then pay hefty fines to have their poperty legalised thus raising revenue for the council.
As to deterring future buyers.. well that is not a necessarily bad thing for us if it halts the pace of development..but I fear most people will adopt a head in the sand approach in the face of rising prices and buy regardless.
I look forward to Glynis and Iris reporting back.
May I end on a tangent?? Paying for coffee yesterday with a friend who knows these things, I was juggling Euro and Sterling coins frustratedly, and remarked that I welcomed Britain converting to the Euro. His reaction was that it was unlikely to happen, as Italy would probabaly have a severe economic crisis resulting in their withdrawal. Wonder how this will impinge on Spain and other countries?? A new thread please!!
Talk of a new law denying any amnesty and levying hefty fines on illegal builds (see Mourinho's post) in green areas and future roadways seems a sensible way forward. Imagine if people began to build in the midst of Chiclana's lovely pine forests ? Considering coming over there permanently and indulging in property refurbishment I was shown a lovely old finca built on agricultural land. It was derelict, but the agent was adamant that it could be restored in any configuration provided the aerial pics were the same, ie we never strayed outside the footprint. I have rain checked this idea. In the adjacent field was a new build which I was assured was illegal.
I reiterate that again there is so much hearsay. Has anyone knowledge of a single property being demolished?? How come even people with acknowledged illegal properties are getting meters installed??
I think the hidden agenda may be...and this is conjecture...that they want to scare people who will then pay hefty fines to have their poperty legalised thus raising revenue for the council.
As to deterring future buyers.. well that is not a necessarily bad thing for us if it halts the pace of development..but I fear most people will adopt a head in the sand approach in the face of rising prices and buy regardless.
I look forward to Glynis and Iris reporting back.
May I end on a tangent?? Paying for coffee yesterday with a friend who knows these things, I was juggling Euro and Sterling coins frustratedly, and remarked that I welcomed Britain converting to the Euro. His reaction was that it was unlikely to happen, as Italy would probabaly have a severe economic crisis resulting in their withdrawal. Wonder how this will impinge on Spain and other countries?? A new thread please!!
May 23rd 2006, 8:29 am
#55
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Joined: Nov 2005
Location: Cadiz Province, Spain
Posts: 231
Re: Chiclana
[QUOTE=poollounger]
I reiterate that again there is so much hearsay. Has anyone knowledge of a single property being demolished?? How come even people with acknowledged illegal properties are getting meters installed??
I think the hidden agenda may be...and this is conjecture...that they want to scare people who will then pay hefty fines to have their poperty legalised thus raising revenue for the council.
Cannot agree more, hence the need for as much info as possible.....forewarned is forearmed, to my mind. And to take a leaf out of the Ayamonte buyers' book, if enough people affected can get at the facts, that's a lot of political clout to raise serious objections should the situation be hazardous for property owners.
I reiterate that again there is so much hearsay. Has anyone knowledge of a single property being demolished?? How come even people with acknowledged illegal properties are getting meters installed??
I think the hidden agenda may be...and this is conjecture...that they want to scare people who will then pay hefty fines to have their poperty legalised thus raising revenue for the council.
Cannot agree more, hence the need for as much info as possible.....forewarned is forearmed, to my mind. And to take a leaf out of the Ayamonte buyers' book, if enough people affected can get at the facts, that's a lot of political clout to raise serious objections should the situation be hazardous for property owners.
May 23rd 2006, 10:19 am
#56
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Re: Chiclana
Originally Posted by poollounger
Mitzi in my experience Mayors say whatever seems politically expedient at the time. In view of the Marbella fracas perhaps the Mayor of Chiclana thinks he will be seen as honest and tough by acknowledging the illegal builds?? How does he know the exact number?? How does anyone know without a comprehensive survey ?? Here in London our Mr Livingstone often trumpets facts which personal experience dictates are otherwise.
Talk of a new law denying any amnesty and levying hefty fines on illegal builds (see Mourinho's post) in green areas and future roadways seems a sensible way forward. Imagine if people began to build in the midst of Chiclana's lovely pine forests ? Considering coming over there permanently and indulging in property refurbishment I was shown a lovely old finca built on agricultural land. It was derelict, but the agent was adamant that it could be restored in any configuration provided the aerial pics were the same, ie we never strayed outside the footprint. I have rain checked this idea. In the adjacent field was a new build which I was assured was illegal.
I reiterate that again there is so much hearsay. Has anyone knowledge of a single property being demolished?? How come even people with acknowledged illegal properties are getting meters installed??
I think the hidden agenda may be...and this is conjecture...that they want to scare people who will then pay hefty fines to have their poperty legalised thus raising revenue for the council.
As to deterring future buyers.. well that is not a necessarily bad thing for us if it halts the pace of development..but I fear most people will adopt a head in the sand approach in the face of rising prices and buy regardless.
I look forward to Glynis and Iris reporting back.
May I end on a tangent?? Paying for coffee yesterday with a friend who knows these things, I was juggling Euro and Sterling coins frustratedly, and remarked that I welcomed Britain converting to the Euro. His reaction was that it was unlikely to happen, as Italy would probabaly have a severe economic crisis resulting in their withdrawal. Wonder how this will impinge on Spain and other countries?? A new thread please!!
Talk of a new law denying any amnesty and levying hefty fines on illegal builds (see Mourinho's post) in green areas and future roadways seems a sensible way forward. Imagine if people began to build in the midst of Chiclana's lovely pine forests ? Considering coming over there permanently and indulging in property refurbishment I was shown a lovely old finca built on agricultural land. It was derelict, but the agent was adamant that it could be restored in any configuration provided the aerial pics were the same, ie we never strayed outside the footprint. I have rain checked this idea. In the adjacent field was a new build which I was assured was illegal.
I reiterate that again there is so much hearsay. Has anyone knowledge of a single property being demolished?? How come even people with acknowledged illegal properties are getting meters installed??
I think the hidden agenda may be...and this is conjecture...that they want to scare people who will then pay hefty fines to have their poperty legalised thus raising revenue for the council.
As to deterring future buyers.. well that is not a necessarily bad thing for us if it halts the pace of development..but I fear most people will adopt a head in the sand approach in the face of rising prices and buy regardless.
I look forward to Glynis and Iris reporting back.
May I end on a tangent?? Paying for coffee yesterday with a friend who knows these things, I was juggling Euro and Sterling coins frustratedly, and remarked that I welcomed Britain converting to the Euro. His reaction was that it was unlikely to happen, as Italy would probabaly have a severe economic crisis resulting in their withdrawal. Wonder how this will impinge on Spain and other countries?? A new thread please!!
Poollounger regarding the number of illegal new builds. Its quite easy to come to a figure. Check all the licences to build over the last five years against the urban plan. Then take photographs by helicopter over the whole area. Compare them with the plan and bingo you have your number. Why should people have to pay fines to this council who have allowed and are still allowing illegal building to continue unabated. At the bottom of our road a lovely forest that use to be home to many animals and birds has been destroyed. On it is being built a number of houses on plots less than 400 meters.It does not take Sherlock Homes to come to the conclusion that they are totally illegal but the town hall does nothing to stop them. To the question of why they are installing electric meters to properties without the LFO I have no idea because according to the law (what a joke) in Spain without the LFO the utility companies are not allowed to supply services such as water, sewage, electric lifts etc. To give you a example.We went to visit some friends on the Costa del Sol a couple of weeks ago who had bought a new apartment and the lifts were not working. When we asked why they said that they community was waiting for the LFO and the lift company was not allowed to connect them up without this licence.
I think you may be correct about the council making people pay fines why else would the Mayor make a deal with Unijaca for such a vast amount.
My concern is not only to stop the development of this area because it will ruin it but also to warn others not to buy here until the council sort this serious problem out and if they have enough knowledge hopefully they will not stick there heads in the sand.
Re demolishing of property. I truly hope that this never happens to anyone but only last week in the Sur the front page featured the demolition of six houses in Manilva that had been built on green land.
May 23rd 2006, 10:26 am
#57
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Re: Chiclana
[QUOTE=Arco-Iris]
I could not agree more with you Arco-Iris. You know the saying "United we stand divided we fall"
Originally Posted by poollounger
I reiterate that again there is so much hearsay. Has anyone knowledge of a single property being demolished?? How come even people with acknowledged illegal properties are getting meters installed??
I think the hidden agenda may be...and this is conjecture...that they want to scare people who will then pay hefty fines to have their poperty legalised thus raising revenue for the council.
Cannot agree more, hence the need for as much info as possible.....forewarned is forearmed, to my mind. And to take a leaf out of the Ayamonte buyers' book, if enough people affected can get at the facts, that's a lot of political clout to raise serious objections should the situation be hazardous for property owners.
I think the hidden agenda may be...and this is conjecture...that they want to scare people who will then pay hefty fines to have their poperty legalised thus raising revenue for the council.
Cannot agree more, hence the need for as much info as possible.....forewarned is forearmed, to my mind. And to take a leaf out of the Ayamonte buyers' book, if enough people affected can get at the facts, that's a lot of political clout to raise serious objections should the situation be hazardous for property owners.
I could not agree more with you Arco-Iris. You know the saying "United we stand divided we fall"
May 23rd 2006, 11:20 am
#58
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Joined: Apr 2006
Location: Arcos, Chiclana, Olvera
Posts: 67
Re: Chiclana
When buying any new property you should always make sure that the builder has satisfied his obligations with the ayuntamiento and demand to have a "Licencia de Primera Ocupacion". You should not purchase any new property without this document.
The builder has obligations with certain government departments apart from the property which you are purchasing the surrounding area must also meet minimum requirements before the Licencia de Primera Ocupacion can be issued. Street lighting, footpaths, mains sewerage etc. It is not simply the house it is also the environment it is in. In some cases you may not even be able to empadronar with the ayuntamiento.
As builders ourselves, when we build a new property we are entitled to constructors water and electricity which includes a meter. This is where a lot of the cofussion seems to be comming from. Once a property is completed and the new owners receive their Licencia de Primera Ocupacion the constructors supply which in most cases is only 180 volts must be cut off and a new 240 volt residential meter installed. It sounds to me as if the builders are not declaring the property and are simply leaving the builders supply installed meters and all, which is why some of you have metres.
What amazes me is that your abogados failed to ask for a Licencia de Primera ocupacion.
The builder has obligations with certain government departments apart from the property which you are purchasing the surrounding area must also meet minimum requirements before the Licencia de Primera Ocupacion can be issued. Street lighting, footpaths, mains sewerage etc. It is not simply the house it is also the environment it is in. In some cases you may not even be able to empadronar with the ayuntamiento.
As builders ourselves, when we build a new property we are entitled to constructors water and electricity which includes a meter. This is where a lot of the cofussion seems to be comming from. Once a property is completed and the new owners receive their Licencia de Primera Ocupacion the constructors supply which in most cases is only 180 volts must be cut off and a new 240 volt residential meter installed. It sounds to me as if the builders are not declaring the property and are simply leaving the builders supply installed meters and all, which is why some of you have metres.
What amazes me is that your abogados failed to ask for a Licencia de Primera ocupacion.
May 23rd 2006, 2:25 pm
#59
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 143
Re: Chiclana
Originally Posted by Cadiz Builders
When buying any new property you should always make sure that the builder has satisfied his obligations with the ayuntamiento and demand to have a "Licencia de Primera Ocupacion". You should not purchase any new property without this document.
The builder has obligations with certain government departments apart from the property which you are purchasing the surrounding area must also meet minimum requirements before the Licencia de Primera Ocupacion can be issued. Street lighting, footpaths, mains sewerage etc. It is not simply the house it is also the environment it is in. In some cases you may not even be able to empadronar with the ayuntamiento.
As builders ourselves, when we build a new property we are entitled to constructors water and electricity which includes a meter. This is where a lot of the cofussion seems to be comming from. Once a property is completed and the new owners receive their Licencia de Primera Ocupacion the constructors supply which in most cases is only 180 volts must be cut off and a new 240 volt residential meter installed. It sounds to me as if the builders are not declaring the property and are simply leaving the builders supply installed meters and all, which is why some of you have metres.
What amazes me is that your abogados failed to ask for a Licencia de Primera ocupacion.
The builder has obligations with certain government departments apart from the property which you are purchasing the surrounding area must also meet minimum requirements before the Licencia de Primera Ocupacion can be issued. Street lighting, footpaths, mains sewerage etc. It is not simply the house it is also the environment it is in. In some cases you may not even be able to empadronar with the ayuntamiento.
As builders ourselves, when we build a new property we are entitled to constructors water and electricity which includes a meter. This is where a lot of the cofussion seems to be comming from. Once a property is completed and the new owners receive their Licencia de Primera Ocupacion the constructors supply which in most cases is only 180 volts must be cut off and a new 240 volt residential meter installed. It sounds to me as if the builders are not declaring the property and are simply leaving the builders supply installed meters and all, which is why some of you have metres.
What amazes me is that your abogados failed to ask for a Licencia de Primera ocupacion.
Thanks
May 23rd 2006, 2:50 pm
#60
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Posts: 231
Re: Chiclana
Originally Posted by NicCol
I was wondering if you could go into more detail about the "Licencia de primera ocupacion" please? Who issues that, is it the builders or the town hall, is it something we, as buyers have to pick up or should it be part of the completion process? I have just e-mailed my solicitor to make sure we are getting one on our completion, but I need to sound knowledgeable!
Thanks
Thanks
http://www.spainlawyer.com/guialegal...04010107030000